Maraud, Wild, et al...Can we discuss this elephant in room? SHouse??

@no1marauder said
Trying to explain political philosophy to someone as dense and uneducated as yourself is as useful as discussing quantum physics with a parakeet.

The Declaration of Independence says where rights come from and it's not "from someone else". That said, it's hardly novel to recognize that protection of some rights requires action by others; for example, the right to a tri ...[text shortened]... owners to allow others into their homes against their wishes though. Maybe you could provide a link.

I never said anything about our allowing people to move into our homes. I didn't, so no need to look for it.

You said this above:""" The Declaration of Independence says where rights come from and it's not "from someone else"""
Please, no more incomplete statements? You purport to tell us where i NOT?? come from?? But you don't say where they DO come from.
Where do the rights of people who enjoy those rights..Come From!?!? That is all that this thread is about. Wildgrass above tried to slip 'morality in this thread, which is totally irrelevant.
Please tell the forum where someone, who might get housing or health care, as-a-right, get it from. Where would it come from, what entity or person?

@AverageJoe1 said
I never said anything about our allowing people to move into our homes. I didn't, so no need to look for it.

You said this above:""" The Declaration of Independence says where rights come from and it's not "from someone else"""
Please, no more incomplete statements? You purport to tell us where i NOT?? come from?? But you don't say where they DO come from.
...[text shortened]... housing or health care, as-a-right, get it from. Where would it come from, what entity or person?

I assumed you have either read the Declaration of Independence and/or have the capability to Google it. Guess I was wrong.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/declaration-transcript

Rights don't come from other men, we're born with them.

I won't get into whether I believe things like housing or education or health care are "rights" as the Founders understood them; that would be far too advanced for you.

Is your last question serious? I believe I already answered it by analogy to the right to a trial by jury.

@no1marauder said
I assumed you have either read the Declaration of Independence and/or have the capability to Google it. Guess I was wrong.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governm ...[text shortened]... r last question serious? I believe I already answered it by analogy to the right to a trial by jury.

Advanced? What is advanced about Bernie saying that housing is indeed a Human Right? Healthcare, Housing and Education. A right has to come from somewhere. You are wrong that we are born with it. It comes from you? From me? Then, that means the right that I have as human has been taken from me. You take my right and give it to someone else?.
I had $20 and now I have $10, if you put it in monetary terms.

@AverageJoe1 said
Advanced? What is advanced about Bernie saying that housing is indeed a Human Right? Healthcare, Housing and Education. A right has to come from somewhere. You are wrong that we are born with it. It comes from you? From me? Then, that means the right that I have as human has been taken from me. You take my right and give it to someone else?.
I had $20 and now I have $10, if you put it in monetary terms.

Sorry, the folks who created this country agree with me that you are born with rights.

I do not recall them ever stating that anyone has a "right" not to contribute to democratically decided government programs. I don't like part of my earnings being spent on bombs for Israel to kill civilians, but I'm not going to claim my rights are violated by the fact that this is done.

@AverageJoe1 said
Advanced? What is advanced about Bernie saying that housing is indeed a Human Right? Healthcare, Housing and Education. A right has to come from somewhere. You are wrong that we are born with it. It comes from you? From me? Then, that means the right that I have as human has been taken from me. You take my right and give it to someone else?.
I had $20 and now I have $10, if you put it in monetary terms.

Protected rights are decided by a sizable super-majority of the population. The Constitutional amendment process decides what our protected rights are.

no1m may say we are "born" with "natural" rights - I have debated that with him many times over the years and I don't care to do it again. Let's just say that some of our "born" rights are protected and ensured by the US government and others are not (e.g. our right to privacy and sunlight and to walk in green meadows, we are "born" with - but these rights are not protected. Some would question whether having an "unprotected" right has any value. For another time.)

The only rights that matter are our "protected" rights, and we as a country absolutely DO decide what those are. We put them in our Constitution and ALL government officials take an oath (i.e. it is in their job description) to protect ALL those rights equally for everyone. 😆

@no1marauder said
Sorry, the folks who created this country agree with me that you are born with rights.

I do not recall them ever stating that anyone has a "right" not to contribute to democratically decided government programs. I don't like part of my earnings being spent on bombs for Israel to kill civilians, but I'm not going to claim my rights are violated by the fact that this is done.

You speak of taxes. OK, we follow. You thus are saying that taxes should be used to provide free healthcare, free education, and free housing.
Is everyone getting this?
And, Marauder omitas that in the end, I, and you are responsible to people who demand free housing, because we pay the tax.
Marauder supports my comment a few clicks back, a govt guy comes to my door for money to pay to put another guy into housing. (tax).
So I am the responsible party who succumbs to Marx....From each according to their ability to each according to his needs.
Am I right so far?

@AverageJoe1 said
You speak of taxes. OK, we follow. You thus are saying that taxes should be used to provide free healthcare, free education, and free housing.
Is everyone getting this?
And, Marauder omitas that in the end, I, and you are responsible to people who demand free housing, because we pay the tax.
Marauder supports my comment a few clicks back, a govt guy comes to m ...[text shortened]... arx....From each according to their ability to each according to his needs.
Am I right so far?

No, you're not.

Progressive taxation has nothing to do with Marx. Neither does the provision of healthcare, education or housing to members of society that our chosen economic system fails to adequately provide for.

I have no idea why you keep starting threads babbling about Marxism when it quickly becomes clear you don't have the faintest clue what that philosophy stands for.

@no1marauder said
No, you're not.

Progressive taxation has nothing to do with Marx. Neither does the provision of healthcare, education or housing to members of society that our chosen economic system fails to adequately provide for.

I have no idea why you keep starting threads babbling about Marxism when it quickly becomes clear you don't have the faintest clue what that philosophy stands for.

OK, I am certainly not as schooled in Marx as you are.
But, fact remains, y'all want the government to use tax money to provide free health, housing and education. The same as the govt at my door saying, give us your money so this guy over here can use it for his own needs.
Some people, like me, work harder than others. Yet you want me to be responsible for the people that Bernie says have Human Rights, but does not say where those rights come from.
Why didn't Bernie say on the spot that "Everyone here needs to help provide free health, housing and education to other people. I am not speaking of the indigent. I am taking of all Americans...... I am saying all Americans.... that is what I'm saying."" Why didn't Bernie be honest?

There simply can be no human rights, nor any rights, to what y'all are saying without closing your premise by saying that someone has to be responsible for said rights, they have to 'give' the rights for them to be received. There is no Equality that y'all keep spewing about.....at least not in our economic society/

@no1marauder said
Sorry, the folks who created this country agree with me that you are born with rights.

I do not recall them ever stating that anyone has a "right" not to contribute to democratically decided government programs. I don't like part of my earnings being spent on bombs for Israel to kill civilians, but I'm not going to claim my rights are violated by the fact that this is done.

Why don't you say what 'rights' that James Madison said we are born with?

@AverageJoe1 said
OK, I am certainly not as schooled in Marx as you are.
But, fact remains, y'all want the government to use tax money to provide free health, housing and education. The same as the govt at my door saying, give us your money so this guy over here can use it for his own needs.
Some people, like me, work harder than others. Yet you want me to be responsible for the ...[text shortened]... eived. There is no Equality that y'all keep spewing about.....at least not in our economic society/

There are hundreds of examples of our constitutional founders discussing the crucial importance of educating people.

@spruce112358 said
Protected rights are decided by a sizable super-majority of the population. The Constitutional amendment process decides what our protected rights are.

no1m may say we are "born" with "natural" rights - I have debated that with him many times over the years and I don't care to do it again. Let's just say that some of our "born" rights are protected and ensured by the ...[text shortened]... e an oath (i.e. it is in their job description) to protect ALL those rights equally for everyone. 😆

Protected rights are decided by a sizable super-majority of the population. The Constitutional amendment process decides what our protected rights are.


You said this above. You are aware, Spuce, that the 'majority' of our citizens has voted to have Trump for President, to what he supposed to do. With all the powers.
The Majority Ruled.
So you are in conflict with all of your posts. All of you are very upset with the State of the Union, which State the Majority voted for.
Many of you have wanted to get rid of Electoral College..... You have wanted one vote per person, etc etc. So now you have what you wanted. The Majority has elected the President, and you have the voted-upon Administration.
You now are trying to negate that vote? Are you all trying to negate the election, because the majority did indeed elect Trump.
The majority. Even the SUe says the majority should rule.

@wildgrass said
There are hundreds of examples of our constitutional founders discussing the crucial importance of educating people.

Yes, There is no question that we should continue educating people,, in pretty much the same way we have done so unerringly for 250 years. A given, Don't get your point.

@AverageJoe1 said
Yes, There is no question that we should continue educating people,, in pretty much the same way we have done so unerringly for 250 years. A given, Don't get your point.

No, not in the same way.

Trump has fundamentally changed the emphasis on education.

I keep waiting for you to say "we don't need no education."

Spoken like a true MAGA.

@AverageJoe1 said
Protected rights are decided by a sizable super-majority of the population. The Constitutional amendment process decides what our protected rights are.


You said this above. You are aware, Spuce, that the 'majority' of our citizens has voted to have Trump for President, to what he supposed to do. With all the powers.
The Majority Ruled.
So you are in conflict ...[text shortened]... he majority did indeed elect Trump.
The majority. Even the SUe says the majority should rule.

No. Just no.

The people voting for Trump are stupid. Just plain stupid. At the very least, they were ignorant about just what he would do.

I might remind you that more people did NOT vote for Trump than voted for Trump. So, therefore, a MINORITY voted for Trump. So Trump, and you, and others like you are truly "mob rule". A minority of stupid, crazed mobsters deciding things for the rest of us.

Thanks for nothing.

@AverageJoe1 said
Protected rights are decided by a sizable super-majority of the population. The Constitutional amendment process decides what our protected rights are.


You said this above. You are aware, Spuce, that the 'majority' of our citizens has voted to have Trump for President, to what he supposed to do. With all the powers.
The Majority Ruled.
So you are in conflict ...[text shortened]... he majority did indeed elect Trump.
The majority. Even the SUe says the majority should rule.

Hopefully, "Mr. Education", you can finally learn that Trump was voted in by a PLURALITY, NOT a "majority". In fact, he was voted in by a MINORITY. More people did NOT vote for him than voted for him.

TRY to remember that, eh?