Maraud, Wild, et al...Can we discuss this elephant in room? SHouse??

@no1marauder said
You didn't answer my question.

Taxes have been reduced on the wealthy for 40 years while their share of national income has steadily increased. The military is bloated and the amount of spending on it has no relation to any real defensive needs.

It would be fairly easy to balance the budget with a few tax corrections like taxing capital gains, dividends and inherit ...[text shortened]... e Marines for one - we really don't need a force created to shoot from the rigging of ships anymore.

It would be fairly easy to balance the budget with a few tax corrections like taxing capital gains, dividends and inheritances at regular rates.

You don't close your post....you should tell spruce and everyone what you will do with the money that you have saved by cutting military in half

(You and Bernie that is)

@AverageJoe1 said
I agree with that. Give us an example of the type of right, the ones that are subjects of this thread, that is,…..the ones that Bernie says that all Americans are entitled to. (have rights to).
Now we were getting somewhere!!

I've said it 100,000 times but I will say it again. SOMEDAY you will understand me:

"Government exists to protect ALL our rights. EQUALLY. AT THE SAME TIME."

ONE. Education. We have a right to education because everyone needs to have the same understanding of the Rules of Society. The Laws. What you have to do. What you cannot do. Free Public Education is a right because you can't expect people to follow instructions IF YOU DON'T GIVE THEM INSTRUCTION!!! You want people to pay taxes? Serve on juries, etc.? Then they have to be able to read and do math. Do you want people to obey the Law? Then tell them what the Law is.

Idea: "Oh, we can privatize all that." NO. You can't. Because you have no idea what a "private school" will teach. It might be the law, it might not be.

Do you have the right to be educated as a plumber or marine biologist? No. That you can pay for on your own.

TWO. Housing. You can't say “... they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are Life, ....” and then say "But you can't live here. Or over there. No, not there either. No, you can't live here. Or on that public land? No, not for you. That park is closed. Nope, sorry - keep moving citizen." You can't say that people have the Right to Life but no Right to Live Anywhere. That's a logical contradiction. It doesn't work because it never CAN work.

We need public land to ensure we all have the right to freedom of association. Without a public road in front of your house, you cannot leave your property. But someone without a home needs to sleep - so he sleeps on the road in front of your house. He HAS THAT RIGHT. But you say, 'This is annoying. Ok, let's build a shelter or low-cost housing or tiny homes. I prefer that.' And government says fine we'll raise your taxes and do that instead. Becuse YOU want it!

THREE. Healthcare. When we said that only doctors can treat patients and only pharmacies can dispense drugs and no hospitals can be built except by permit we TOOK AWAY people's right to seek healthcare. We also made healthcare very expensive in the process. We could have had the right to seek healthcare however and wherever we want - but we don't. That right has been taken. So - either give us our rights BACK, or make healthcare into a public utility with regulated prices. Make healthcare like water or electricity or trash pick-up - or even like police protection (which nobody pays for out of pocket.) Again - you have built an unfair, illogical system. Fix it. 😆

And your final question: "Why do I have to pay for all this?" Because your OBLIGATION and my obligation and all of our obligations is to PROTECT ALL OUR RIGHTS EQUALLY. I don't have the right to ignore it when your rights are violated. You don't have the right to ignore it when my rights are violated. We call that 'civilization' and it differs from 'anarchy.' We've tried anarchy many times in human history. We don't like it. So we got rid of it.

Taxes discharge your obligation to pay to protect all our rights equally. And we tax in proportion to your resources - which is fair. If you have more resources, you pay more because, as with insurance, you are getting protection for more wealth. And rights are protected AS A GROUP because they apply to ALL PEOPLE EQUALLY (do you get this? ALL people). You can't say, "I am willing to pay to protect my property rights but I don't want to pay for the right to education" because poor people with no property would say the reverse: "Don't care about protecting property. Just give me my right to education!"

See? It doesn't work to split it up.

WE ALL have the responsibility to protect ALL our rights EQUALLY AT THE SAME TIME. So we pay taxes to fund a government that does that. 😆
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If you ask me the same damn thing, I'm gonna post the same damn reply. I'm consistent that way. 😆

@Suzianne said

By the way, I agree with No1. We are born with inalienable rights, rights we are endowed with just because we are human.

The only problem I have with "inalienable" rights is when someone comes along and alienates them. 😆

I certainly agree that we are born and immediately are "endowed" with rights - no argument. And those rights should never be "alienated" - they can't be sold or traded or given up [NB. they can be taken away, e.g. in prison]

Is the source birth, though? Or cultural agreement among a "large super-majority of the human population?"

Look at healthcare, clean water, not paying taxes, sunlight, owning slaves, not believing in God, and women not wearing headscarves, for example. Different societies at different times have all declared - with absolutely certainty - these each of these things is "a right." Now we might say, "no no no" WE have the right answers to all these things! Those other societies were wrong i.e. "unnatural." But their answer back to us might be that we are "unnatural." So I'm not sure how you square that.

I prefer to say that 90-95% of us agree on what our "rights" are, we write them down, and charge the government to protect them. I don't think it delegitimizes rights to say they come from us. It's not a majority vote - that would be too variable. Rights must be highly IN-variable and sometimes contrary to what the majority might believe. But I don't think that means that they are written down somewhere in the Book of Nature. I don't think we can find that list anywhere. Nature is not that...directive. 😆

@AverageJoe1 said
Yes, There is no question that we should continue educating people,, in pretty much the same way we have done so unerringly for 250 years. A given, Don't get your point.

Education is a right, a moral obligation of our society. That's the point.

@spruce112358 said
The only problem I have with "inalienable" rights is when someone comes along and alienates them. 😆

I certainly agree that we are born and immediately are "endowed" with rights - no argument. And those rights should never be "alienated" - they can't be sold or traded or given up [NB. they can be taken away, e.g. in prison]

Is the source birth, though? Or cultural ...[text shortened]... the Book of Nature. I don't think we can find that list anywhere. Nature is not that...directive. 😆

Rights are moral obligations of societies, and as such they are are not static over time. Think about a fundamental human right like freedom. Obviously this wasn't considered fundamental in America 200 years ago.

Rights also come with responsibilities and limitations. Right to education, but not a right to be educated at Harvard.

@wildgrass said
Education is a right, a moral obligation of our society. That's the point.

If some education is a right, then it has to be free. You cannot charge people for something they have a right to. 😆

e.g. If people have the right to free speech, they cannot be charged for the privilege of speaking.

That's why I narrow the "right" to education down to something very specific and which makes sense: the laws of society. We all have a right to be educated in what the rules of society are, what we are supposed to do. That is actually a very broad topic. To understand why we make the rules we do is going to entail reading and arithmetic, touch on history and science, morality, ethics, etc. The basis for why we declare certain rights and a government to defend those rights has to be explained and that involves a lot. Why do we have laws about fisheries? Why do we have public land? Why does the Supreme Court have 9 members? Etc., etc.

But the right to education does NOT encompass learning a trade. Learning a trade can be learned elsewhere.

Taxes have to be connected specifically to protecting our rights, not just "doing good things." It would be great if I had a ham sandwich, a slice of watermelon, free internet, and a massage - but it is wrong to raise taxes to provide them. Same with education - it would be great if my kid learned to be an electrician or anthropologist. But raising everyone's taxes to provide them that benefit is wrong. We have to find other ways to fund that. 😆

@wildgrass said
Education is a right, a moral obligation of our society. That's the point.

?? if we all live on an island, you are saying that it’s inhabitants, our citizens, have a right to an education. So that will be decided around a campfire on the island…by all the elders. So, so when everybody gets up from that meeting, and announce that everyone has a right to an education, where does it come from, this education that they have a right to? I do not know an easier way to ask this question.

@AverageJoe1 said
?? if we all live on an island, you are saying that it’s inhabitants, our citizens, have a right to an education. So that will be decided around a campfire on the island…by all the elders. So, so when everybody gets up from that meeting, and announce that everyone has a right to an education, where does it come from, this education that they have a right to? I do not know an easier way to ask this question.

, where does it come from, this education that they have a right to?

Rights are provided by whatever system of laws and governance that your society sets up.

Marauder will tell you about natural rights philosophy stuff, but that clouds the practical application.

Change in laws will change your rights.

@wildgrass said

, where does it come from, this education that they have a right to?

Rights are provided by whatever system of laws and governance that your society sets up.

Marauder will tell you about natural rights philosophy stuff, but that clouds the practical application.

Change in laws will change your rights.

Yes, that is all well and good, but what you have simply said is that the government decides to spend money of taxpayers to give to people who have these rights that y’all speak of. You have never really defined what the rights are, except to say that education, healthcare and housing are human rights.. Then you just stop with that ….you never tell us how it can be a human right for that government to pay for all this stuff that other people like myself and you are having to provide. You see , after we take care of the 50 million destitute in this country, I would think that the responsibility we have by government, would end. Everyone else seems to be able to take care of themselves, and they should. They should not be able to enjoy those rights, at the expense of others, such as you and me. I would like to see you justify that one. I don’t see a lot of equality there as y’all also preach about.

@AverageJoe1 said
Yes, that is all well and good, but what you have simply said is that the government decides to spend money of taxpayers to give to people who have these rights that y’all speak of. You have never really defined what the rights are, except to say that education, healthcare and housing are human rights.. Then you just stop with that ….you never tell us how it can be a huma ...[text shortened]... ld like to see you justify that one. I don’t see a lot of equality there as y’all also preach about.

You see , after we take care of the 50 million destitute in this country, I would think that the responsibility we have by government, would end.

This would require setting up a new system of laws and governance than the one we currently have. Rewrite the Constitution and all the laws.

@wildgrass said

You see , after we take care of the 50 million destitute in this country, I would think that the responsibility we have by government, would end.

This would require setting up a new system of laws and governance than the one we currently have. Rewrite the Constitution and all the laws.

Based on all that you have said, it would appear that you would be in the room and demand that everyone be equal. Am I right or wrong. This is a good question, but you will not answer it as simply as I write it.

@AverageJoe1 said
Based on all that you have said, it would appear that you would be in the room and demand that everyone be equal. Am I right or wrong. This is a good question, but you will not answer it as simply as I write it.

No I think the system we have is just fine. I only wish we had caps on campaign contributions and a balanced budget amendment for federal politicians.

@wildgrass said

, where does it come from, this education that they have a right to?

Rights are provided by whatever system of laws and governance that your society sets up.

Marauder will tell you about natural rights philosophy stuff, but that clouds the practical application.

Change in laws will change your rights.

Please, no natural right stuff. I cannot imagine anyone discussing that with anyone else.

@wildgrass said
No I think the system we have is just fine. I only wish we had caps on campaign contributions and a balanced budget amendment for federal politicians.

Well here again, you interject campaign contributions. All over the place..

@spruce112358 said
It would be great if I had a ham sandwich, a slice of watermelon, free internet, and a massage - but it is wrong to raise taxes to provide them.

Would it be okay to raise taxes -- i.e. make it a function of government -- to provide these things to people who have never even had the option of having them?

I'm imagining a ham-sandwich-bearing "Welcome-to-America" wagon, ala Welcome Wagon.