Originally posted by Remora91If it's all consensual, or doesn't involve anyone else, what does it matter?
Someone who practices sexual perversion. Look it up at dictionary.com.
The questions you and others were asked come under sexual harassment, which is a different matter entirely. I don't think there's much correlation between levels of sexual harassment and how 'orthodox' a person's sexual desires are.
Originally posted by Remora91I think this is why marinakatomb was asking you to define pervs.
Thats just the tip of the ice berg from what my friends and I have been asked!
Are you a virgin?
What town do you live in?
Whats your bra size?
Whats the color of you underwear?
Do you wear thongs?
and the list goes on!
Had you told these people your age before they started asking these questions?
If you hadn't then...well not quite sure perv is an accurate description, more like puerile.
Or it could be you're specifically talking about "other kids", from the way your post reads. Being puerile is the perogative of young boys, dont worry, bad parenting aside most of them grow out of it...
MÅ¥HÅRM
EDIT: I could think of some examples of what a real perv would be saying to you, but that would probably be a bad idea... 😉
Originally posted by Remora91
Well for one I know my friend ****s parents encourage him to watch porn. Hes like the biggest friggin perv in the world. He knows more about a womans body then I do! And I'm not even sure he's a virgin. Why would anyone raise their kids that way?
You'll be having trouble with that "friend" soon enough.
Originally posted by Remora91'perverse' is massivly subjective term. Some people might consider having sex with the lights on perverted so it's difficult to know where you're coming from exactly. I think that's why he asked for you to define what you considered a perv.
Someone who practices sexual perversion. Look it up at dictionary.com.
Adolescense is a tough time, for both boys and girls. As the science of nutrition improves, the age at which puberty (physical adolesence) onsets is happening earlier and earlier. Mental adolescence is lagging farther and farther behind. In the 19th century, many boys were pre-pubescent until 18 and even as late as 20. The brain and body were aligned.
Today, boys and girls are experience adult urges without the adult capacity to understand them. This leads to a tremendous disjunct between body and mind during the ages between ~13 and ~20 (every case is different though).
During this critical time, the brain is formulating pathways for judging the world; this time of raw learning is only surpassed by the first few years of life.
The morality of pornography aside (another thread, I think), encouraging a child going through the tumultous time by watching sex acts totally objectified will simply encourage the child to think that pornography represents real-life relationships. Given the typically perfunctory plots of pornographic films -- Boy shows up at house to fix electricity, girl shows him fuse box, boy bends over to pick up tools, woman takes off dress, &c -- watching such films at such a formative time may encourage an adolescent to think that all interaction with the opposite sex should take this form.
All of that having been said, I don't know a single man roughly my age who didn't do whatever he could to try to watch soft-porn movies when he was 13 in a desparate effort to see a breast. Late-night Cinemax and Showtime composed a major part of my childhood colleagues' schedules. I know some who tried to watch Playboy with the 'snow' on just so they could hear the sounds.
So, perhaps the parents aren't 'encouraging' him (although that's what the child might boldly claim), but asking him to be honest so that they can monitor his behavior; rather than sneaking up at 1 in the morning to watch soft-porn, they'd rather he tell them up front. They may feel that it's going to happen anyway, so they try to monitor and, perhaps, control it. It's not unlike the conversations many parents have about sex before their child's first date. Many parents make condoms available to their children because they believe (and statistics show) that the kids are going to be having sex anyway, and so affording a child protection from pregnancy and illness comes at the expense of appearing to condone such activity (discussion about this should take place in another thread, it's certainly an interesting and controversial topic).
And, since most boys in the 13-20 range are confused about sex (against because of the disjunct mentioned above), that your colleague would have a tendency to make fun of those things makes sense to me. People, child and adult alike, often make fun of things they don't understand. It's a defense mechanism.
Remora, without knowing the intimate details of the situation from the parents' point-of-view, it would be difficult for some of us to label this child (or his parents) as perverted, or as far as I am concerned. Controversial? Perhaps. Perverted? It's a much tougher call in my mind.
Nemesio
Originally posted by nemesioWhat do you think is a proper use of the word perverted? I'm not at
Adolescense is a tough time, for both boys and girls. As the science of nutrition improves, the age at which puberty (physical adolesence) onsets is happening earlier and earlier. Mental adolescence is lagging farther and farther behind. In the 19th century, many boys were pre-pubescent until 18 and even as late as 20. The brain and body were aligned.
...[text shortened]... ncerned. Controversial? Perhaps. Perverted? It's a much tougher call in my mind.
Nemesio
all attempting to make a judgement call on anything you said so far.
I'm just attempting to understand where you place the line to begin
with. I will say that I believe each of us will have a different opinion
on the matter so this isn't a gotcha question.
(Until you attempt to answer. LOL kidding)
Originally posted by nemesio
Adolescense is a tough time, for both boys and girls. As the science of nutrition improves, the age at which puberty (physical adolesence) onsets is happening earlier and earlier.
the advance of the age of puberty is hardly a result of the 'improvement' of the science of nutrition.
it is largely a result of the consumption of hormone filled foods amongst other things:
Early puberty, or "early menarchy" (or menarche or menarch) as it is called, is thought to be caused by diet and lifestyle factors including estrogen-mimicking chemicals (such as pesticides and plasticizers), shampoos and cosmetics that contain estrogen, over-eating, lack of exercise, consumption of soy foods, and unnatural stimulation resulting from the invention of the electric light and television. Early menarchy is a situation that can be prevented, but is difficult to reverse after it has happened.
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/earlymenarchy.htm
The morality of pornography aside (another thread, I think), encouraging a child going through the tumultous time by watching sex acts totally objectified will simply encourage the child to think that pornography represents real-life relationships.
exactly!
and even more important than that, kids need a chance to be kids.
they certainly shouldn't be pushed into becoming 'miniature' adults.
much of the 'perversion' (however it is defined) stems from this.
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by pradtfYes and no, but I was unclear. It's pretty clear that what we consider poor nutrition today delays the onset of puberty and, conversely, proper nutrition makes it appear earlier.
the advance of the age of puberty is hardly a result of the 'improvement' of the science of nutrition.
But, as far as I know, humankind has had a relatively 'unbalanced' diet until the past century (20th) when, because of the advances in transport of goods, all manner of foods were available far and near. That is, some places had largely fish-based diets, other places had largely agricultural diets, and so forth.
Your link, however, is a much better summation than my ham-handed comment. Thank you. I think we should be wary of going too far off-topic, though. Maybe if there is more to discuss on this topic, the interested party might consider making another thread.
Nemesio
Originally posted by KellyJayI'm not answering until you answer my questions. 😉
What do you think is a proper use of the word perverted?
Seriously, you ask where I draw the line; this implies that I have a line to begin with.
I'm not being coy, but any line I draw would be very wavy indeed. I've never tried to define perversion, largely because some acts are or are not perverted based on context. And some acts are more or less perverted. However, the line between perverse and kinky can be a subjective one; some people might find certain activities or implements perverse and others might find them kinky, if you see what I mean (I'm trying my best to keep this at least PG, here).
Sure, some acts I would always describe as perverted. I'd rather not list them, in an effort to keep this from going beyond the pale, although that ties the discussion from expanding a bit. However, it's not clear to me, without hearing the parents' comments, whether this situation is or is not perverse.
I mean, the kid might be watching 'Red Shoe Diaries,' which is rather soft-core. That's a lot different than the parents renting S&M flicks for their kid. I don't think that a 13 year-old's representation of what is and is not pornographic (unless he's a lot more well-versed than my colleagues were at 13) is going to be terribly accurate. I remember very vividly seeing my first breast in film (I was 12, an early bloomer!). I thought I had died and gone to heaven, it was such a beautiful thing.
What this kid is calling porn, and whether his parents are actually letting him watch it is totally speculative, given the capacity for kids to be dishonest for the sake of appearance. Without the parents, I would maintain that it's a really hard call, because we don't know reliable facts.
Nemesio
Originally posted by AcolyteI don't think anyone is placing a value judgement (in this thread) on the activities of adults engaging in consensual acts.
If it's all consensual, or doesn't involve anyone else, what does it matter?...I don't think there's much correlation between levels of sexual harassment and how 'orthodox' a person's sexual desires are.
However, orthodoxy and normative actions are the standards by which pervsion is judged. That doesn't necessarily mean that 'orthodoxy=good' and 'pervsion=bad,' but it doesn't exclude such a position either. Many things develop as orthodox because they are (or are perceived to be) good. This sounds like another thread topic.
What's at issue here is whether showing pornography to a 13 year-old is perverse. We may be able to talk about this in the abstract, but (as I said earlier) I don't think we can be certain that this boy's presentation of what his parents are doing and believe are representative of the truth, given the typical adolescent's proclivity to stretch facts to develop self-status amongst peers.
Nemesio
Originally posted by nemesioParents showing pornography to their child isn't sexually perverted unless the parents are getting off on doing so (😲). However, it might be misguided, irresponsible, unethical or whatever depending on your point-of-view.
I don't think anyone is placing a value judgement (in this thread) on the activities of adults engaging in consensual acts.
However, orthodoxy and normative actions are the standards by which pervsion is judged. That doesn't necessarily mean that 'orthodoxy=good' and 'pervsion=bad,' but it doesn't exclude such a position either. Many things devel ...[text shortened]... pical adolescent's proclivity to stretch facts to develop self-status amongst peers.
Nemesio
We can then ask whether the child is perverted for wanting to watch pornography. While this line is taken by some, I wouldn't say it's a mainstream view in the West, partly because it would mean classing such a large number of teenagers as perverts.
Sexual orthodoxy is indeed worth its own thread, but I'll just say this: for many people, orthodox sexual practices only extend to sex between husband and wife for the purpose of procreation. There is also a common attitude that the woman shouldn't find the experience pleasurable, making any kind of sexuality in women perverted. This position was a mainstream one in the West less than a century ago.
Originally posted by nemesioagreed. i do plan to address the nutrition issue if i ever dig up a very old thread i started.
I think we should be wary of going too far off-topic, though. Maybe if there is more to discuss on this topic, the interested party might consider making another thread.
many of your other points are well-taken. i think a large part of the concept of 'perversion' relates to the idea of 'mutation'. the words are in quotes simply because i don't want to get into precise definitions.
an unnatural environment for a child (or anyone impressionable of any age) can often result in the development of abnormalities.
for instance, when we bombard someone with 'sex' who doesn't understand or doesn't even have the sexual impulse within him or herself, that bombardment will shape their idea of what sex is (just as you write earlier).
if one's main existence is to be glued to the violence on newscasts, then one gets what is sometimes called in education circles to be the 'mean world' syndrome.
if one spends one's life addicted to video games, then one develops considerably more than hand-eye coordination.
this effect can actually affect kids in areas where you least expect it too. premature intellectual stimulation produces frustration and even illness in kids. i recall when my son was 7, i started giving him math problems - he started to fidget and squirm. it was not something he wanted to put his energy into. interestingly enough though, he was perfectly comfortable tackling math puzzles - especially those where i didn't know the answer - it was an adventure!
rudolph steiner's waldorf education principles (as well as some others) stress that kids should not be made to intellectualize too early. they should remain in the body, for as long as they need to and not move into the head prematurely.
i think the 'perversion' that remora91 is talking about occurs, in many cases, because kids are made to 'grow up' too quickly (and of course, they really don't).
in friendship,
prad