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Originally posted by nemesioI understand your not being coy, I give you credit for being a very
I'm not answering until you answer my questions. 😉
Seriously, you ask where I draw the line; this implies that I have a line to begin with.
I'm not being coy, but any line I draw would be very wavy indeed. I've never tried to d ...[text shortened]... eally hard call, because we don't know reliable facts.
Nemesio
thoughtful poster.
Do you think there is a line (fuzzy/wavy as it may be,) but that
one is there, but it is moving at a variety of rates among different
people? Think about TV over the years, at one time they didn't even
show a married couple sleeping in the same bed. I love Lucy is an
example. Granted that is more of a standard of TV viewing, but it was
created out of a sense of decency among the views at that time.
If you believe there is a wavy line that if crossed we see perversion,
do you think it is moving? When I think about some of the other
topics that have been on the board like 'evil people' that some people
are basically moved from what we would call normal into someone who
would murder children for fun or their so-called idea of justice. Meaning
their lines if you will, were in flux what they once rejected they later
embraced wholeheartedly.
To me it is a slow movement of what is and isn't acceptable with
mankind. Perversion, among a group of people that love pain
and sex with multiple partners, would be different than a group of
fundamentalist Christians as I understand those terms. So because
there are variety of people with a variety of tastes, is there any
means or manner that all of us can be held to the same standards?
Because we have such a wide variety of people at different levels
of acceptance, this could actually could cause any line of good
behavior to be blurred among us.
If I accept there isn’t a line that if crossed we get into perversion,
than basically isn’t that like saying. we are not any different than
animals? Animals basically do what they do without regard of right
and wrong I believe. Are we the same way, are we simply acting out
our nature when we do anything at all? That seems to me means
there isn't a line at all, we are simply doing what we do as our nature,
our inner core has us wired to do. That is an important question in my
opinion, because to say that no standard can be forced on anyone.
All limits including age basically are on the table if push comes to
shove, heck in my opinion that would even include consent as well
since personal boundaries are nothing but a human construct that
animals don’t really adhere to either.
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Originally posted by Remora91
I few times I've met pervs on the net. Anyone who has met one can telly uo they're rude and nasty. But my question is who the heck raises their kids this way? I mean, why would anyone let theur kid become a perv? Obivously kids aren't born perverted. Something has to inlfuence how they grow up. And chances are parents control what influences them. So why do parents expose their kids to this stuff?
I think generally the cause is parents/parent that don't supply adequate parenting. Over here in the UK you get 12 year olds with pretty serious criminal offenses. Then again when your mother at the time is only 26, little left to the imagination. The only solution would be very high quality schools, or a great rolemodel (again, not too many footballers in the UK that fall under that category). I think the major problem is simply lack of respect for others. I'm sure each and every one of us would turn out the same if brought up in such difficult conditions.
Originally posted by pcaspianI agree with this, but probably not to the extent that you would. I'm sure that you and I would disagree about what constitutes adequate or proper parenting.
I think generally the cause is parents/parent that don't supply adequate parenting.
Buying kids hard-core porn? Bad parenting.
Trying to help a kid wrestle with their sexuality as they grow into adulthood? Good parenting.
Providing a method for a kid to explore that sexuality in a safe manner where they feel comfortable discussing things with their parents? Ideal, but extraordinarily difficult.
Like trying to list every possible infraction of the TOS (another thread), I would argue that it is impossible to list a step-by-step guideline for all parents of all children. It's touch and go, and parents who deeply care about their child and are willing to work hard with them do the best they can. I am not sure we can judge these parents, though, on the double-heresay (from parent, to child, to Remora).
Nemesio
Originally posted by KellyJayThere are two questions at work here: Do I have a line? Yes, I do, it is indeed wavy and fuzzy in spots, and I evaluate circumstances as they are presented to me.
Do you think there is a line (fuzzy/wavy as it may be,) but that
one is there, but it is moving at a variety of rates among different
people?
The second question: Is there a meta-line? That is, is there a line which is fixed (whether or not is is wavy or fuzzy)? This is much tougher to answer; sure there is the normative line that is created by a society's common experiences, values, and beliefs (I addressed this to some degree in my reply to Acolyte). However, is this line 'the line,' the 'right line,' the final say in what is and is not perverse?
You brought up 'I Love Lucy,' which is a fine example. Did you know that was the first show where the word 'Pregnant' was used? Before that, the term was considered crass. Back then, people really found this offensive, now we look back and call it silly. There is no way to accurately predict how we will view certain values in the future. I'm sure there were many outraged people when 'Pregnant' was used in that show. 'All in the Family' had the first on-air toilet flush. It was offensive back then, now we don't even think about it. Should we go back to these times?
I would answer there is a normative line that ebbs and flows, like a pendulum. Something deemed 'offensive' happens (pendulum swings) then people react (pendulim swings back). The speed at which information is exchanged affects this pendulum swinging more rapidly.
Do I think that there is a meta-line? I just don't know. A lot of people turn towards religion for the drawing of meta-lines. I would love to discuss the concept of meta-lines, but I think that this might be appropriate for another thread, since it is so very complicated and deviates from the specific topic at hand.
However, I do feel we need to resist revulsion at ideas that our body's perceive as perverse when it is simply repulsion. An unrelated example: I think the idea of eating bugs is disgusting, as many people would. But many cultures consider some bugs delicacies. I would never deem such culinary choices as 'perverse,' even though I find them personally revolting. I embrace that other cultures enjoy such things, even if I can't. I feel this way in a general way about sexuality (this is a departure from the specific topic that Remora brought up, which was 'Is what the parents doing to their child perverse [or causing him to grow up perverted]? I've answered this elsewhere saying that it's hard to rely on the kid's perspective as accurate, given the likely inaccuracy or embellishment of his story.).
However, what are deemed sexual perversions can develop as the direct result of negative sexual experiences; we know that people who were sexually abused as a child are statistically more likely to abuse another sexually. So, context is critical. Irrespective of my own personal feelings about 'bondage,' for example, there are cases where people come to it because of abuse and expectation of abuse, and this is unhealty. There are also cases where people grow up healthily and otherwise 'normal,' but prefer this sort of sexual play. I would be loath to label such activity as perversion, although I may not be attracted to it myself.
Of course, other people would maintain that my example of people growing up 'normally' would never turn to bondage in the first place, but I don't agree with this axiomatic stance. Since they would hold it to be axiomatic, it would be impossible to have a fruitful discussion with such a person, though they are entitled to their opinion.
Nemesio
But my question is who the heck raises their kids this way? I mean, why would anyone let theur kid become a perv? Obivously kids aren't born perverted. Something has to inlfuence how they grow up. And chances are parents control what influences them. So why do parents expose their kids to this stuff?[/b]The sole criteria for becoming a biological parent is the ability to reproduce. There is no class required, no background check, no certificate or license issued, nor is intent to reproduce required. There is absolutely nothing to protect a child from its parents except the quality of the parents themselves. People get to have and keep the kids they make until they do something bad enough to warrant the state stepping in and removing the child.
The ugly truth is that children get parents who are mentally ill, alcoholic, drug addicted and damanaged by poverty, racism, war and hate. Every person suffers, some people are unable to move beyond their own pain and must inflict on others.
A last note...the reason why those "pervs" do the endless questions and harrassment it because it works. Sooner or later, they find a person who responds, someone who is lonely, scared and desperate for the attention and the illusion/delusion of love and care.
Originally posted by pcaspianI believe it has more to do with lack of respect for authority.
Originally posted by Remora91
[b]I few times I've met pervs on the net. Anyone who has met one can telly uo they're rude and nasty. But my question is who the heck raises their kids this way? I mean, why would anyone let theur kid become a perv? Obivously kids aren't born perverted. Something has to inlfuence how they grow up. And chances are par ...[text shortened]... e each and every one of us would turn out the same if brought up in such difficult conditions.
Originally posted by Remora91My parents sent me to a special perv school. I graduated cum laude. Hey! That is not menat to be dirty!
I few times I've met pervs on the net. Anyone who has met one can telly uo they're rude and nasty. But my question is who the heck raises their kids this way? I mean, why would anyone let theur kid become a perv? Obivously kids aren't born perverted. Something has to inlfuence how they grow up. And chances are parents control what influences them. So why do parents expose their kids to this stuff?