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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 01 Nov '11 20:06
    What do people here think about it?
  2. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    01 Nov '11 20:09
    Originally posted by JS357
    What do people here think about it?
    That's the way all decisions should be made.
  3. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    01 Nov '11 20:41 / 2 edits
    Papandreou has flipped. Couldn't devise a better way to dynamite all the work done. Ask the markets to sit about until January and see if the Greek turkeys will vote for Christmas or ..

    Nobody is happy with this situation and nobody wants to start from here but here is where we are and it was Papandreou's job to get the best deal he could.

    The Greeks would be less happy if told that Lithuania or Ireland wanted to hold a referendum to see if their citizens approved of the latest deal in which 50% of Greek debt is wiped out. Maybe the Germans, who have voluntarily accpeted later retirement dates for example, are not so impressed with Greek demands for better pensions at a younger age.

    Like it or not, huge risks were taken by leaders of many other countries to provide a deal for Greece and they have voters as well. Sometimes it is the job of leaders to do deals and if they cannot, then there is no point doing business at all. Fact is that it was always an option to just let Greece go bust, kick them out of the Euro and watch how they got along. Sure that also would hurt the Euro itself, the big lenders (which were Germany and other countries that did well out of the boom times). But in a dog eat dog world I wonder how Greece would have got along compared to them.

    The idea that all decisions should be made by referendum might suit Californians (who don't seem to need books in schools anyway) but it is not, in fact, the way decisions can possibly be made in the face of the present financial crisis in Europe. Dream on!

    Anyway, debate as you will there is no way this decision to go for a referendum will work politically or economically. Papandreou has blown the game for Greece.
  4. 01 Nov '11 21:16
    It isn't a long term solution any way you slice it. Until the Greeks can learn to live within their means, nothing can be done.

    Same thing goes for all the other Western nations. Some countries just have more room on their rode to kick their cans.
  5. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    01 Nov '11 21:34
    The Greeks are in a position to tell the economists and bankers to go screw themselves and drag the whole rotting system crashing down in flames around them. I hope they soundly reject it.
  6. 01 Nov '11 21:45 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by rwingett
    That's the way all decisions should be made.
    If all decisions were made this way, it might work, because the voters would have learned from the experience, that their decisions have consequences, and they might learn who is a reliable adviser and who is a demogogue. If the average Greek thinks he/she can prevent personal financial ruin by saying 'no' in the referendum, well, they will learn. We all will.
  7. 01 Nov '11 21:45
    If they do that, then who will pay for their social programs?

    It isn't going to be the Greeks, they can't afford those programs.
  8. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    01 Nov '11 21:51
    Originally posted by JS357
    If all decisions were made this way, it might work, because the voters would have learned from the experience, that their decisions have consequences, and they might learn who is a reliable adviser and who is a demogogue. If the average Greek thinks he/she can prevent personal financial ruin by saying 'no' in the referendum, well, they will learn. We all will.
    I say democracy should be allowed to run its course, rather than capitulate timidly before the dictates of unelected bankers and economists.
  9. 01 Nov '11 22:41
    Originally posted by rwingett
    I say democracy should be allowed to run its course, rather than capitulate timidly before the dictates of unelected bankers and economists.
    if the people are to suffer for actions taken by others then they should have a say on which of the options is available. why should any goverment inforce a deal on its people without any vote.
    oh and i hope they reject it just to show they not goverments decide
  10. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    02 Nov '11 01:31
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The Greeks are in a position to tell the economists and bankers to go screw themselves and drag the whole rotting system crashing down in flames around them.
    Very much so and when that happens who will benefit and who will lose or does that matter more than the pleasure of having a great big fart in public?

    If you wonder what it looks like maybe try the end of the Wiemar Republic? Money had no value then and guess what - the rich did reasonably well and the poor got to vote for their own dictator and all trot off to invade Poland. It did not produce an Anarchist heaven after all. But this time around it will be different - why?
  11. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    02 Nov '11 01:41
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Very much so and when that happens who will benefit and who will lose or does that matter more than the pleasure of having a great big fart in public?

    If you wonder what it looks like maybe try the end of the Wiemar Republic? Money had no value then and guess what - the rich did reasonably well and the poor got to vote for their own dictator and all tro ...[text shortened]... did not produce an Anarchist heaven after all. But this time around it will be different - why?
    We had a chance at our anarchist heaven in Spain before Franco finally triumphed.

    The current system is an unsustainable train wreck waiting to happen. It will eventually collapse under its own weight whether anyone likes it or not. There will undoubtedly be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, but better to have it over and done with than try to drag it out indefinitely. No doubt there will be opportunities for more Hitlers to move in, but the trajectory of recent social movements around the world gives me hope that things will move in a more progressive way this time around.
  12. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    02 Nov '11 01:51
    Why are we talking about books in schools in California?
  13. 02 Nov '11 02:14
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The Greeks are in a position to tell the economists and bankers to go screw themselves and drag the whole rotting system crashing down in flames around them. I hope they soundly reject it.
    The Greeks have outsiders who are willing to make sacrifices to bail them out. I seems to be that you are rooting for Greece to commit suicide.
  14. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    02 Nov '11 02:22
    Originally posted by quackquack
    The Greeks have outsiders who are willing to make sacrifices to bail them out. I seems to be that you are rooting for Greece to commit suicide.
    I am rooting for the Greeks to destroy civilization as we know it.
  15. Donation bbarr
    Chief Justice
    02 Nov '11 02:40
    Originally posted by rwingett
    I am rooting for the Greeks to destroy civilization as we know it.
    They started it; it would be only fitting.