Referendum in Greece on Bailout

Originally posted by Soothfast
Exactly how much is Greece in the hole? Cursory searches do not seem to turn up the figure. How much does this tiny country of ten million owe? A trillion euros? A quadrillion? A googolplex squared?

I have been following the arguments all evening, its really quite interesting, the
Greeks apparently want to be part of Europe and have the Euro, they simply dont
like the package that was offered to them. There seems to be four scenarios, The
Greek president will be forced to cancel the referendum, they will hold the
referendum and the voters will say, yes, they will hold the referendum and the
voters will say no, they will hold the referendum and Greece will default either way.

The economists were saying that they have enough mulla to keep the country
running for three to four weeks, a referendum will take longer to organise. They will
not get any dosh until the referendum is decided.

The fact of the matter is, Greece is in more debt now that before it was offered
these packages, is it any wonder the people themselves are reticent about taking on
even more. The austerity packages are doomed to failure, for corruption prevents
taxes being utilised therefore up to a quarter of the populace refuse to pay. Is a
default really that bad? why not ask our American friends, dont states default of a
regular basis? just asking.

I think its a brave stance taken by the Greek president and I hope Greece defaults
for everyone knows these packages are being offered, not to protect the Greeks
themselves, but the creditors.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have been following the arguments all evening, its really quite interesting, the
Greeks apparently want to be part of Europe and have the Euro, they simply dont
like the package that was offered to them. There seems to be four scenarios, The
Greek president will be forced to cancel the referendum, they will hold the
referendum and the vote ...[text shortened]... ows these packages are being offered, not to protect the Greeks
themselves, but the creditors.

Drag the whole world down in flames and watch it burn. That's what I'm rooting for.

Originally posted by rwingett
Drag the whole world down in flames and watch it burn. That's what I'm rooting for.

yup, its in a kind of downward spiralling mode, just wait till it hits the ground, then your
words may indeed come true and we can warm ourselves on the embers.

Originally posted by rwingett
Drag the whole world down in flames and watch it burn. That's what I'm rooting for.

I take it your blankie is fireproof.


GRANNY,

Originally posted by smw6869
I take it your blankie is fireproof.


GRANNY,

No, it isn't. But this isn't about me.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yup, its in a kind of downward spiralling mode, just wait till it hits the ground, then your
words may indeed come true and we can warm ourselves on the embers.

If every bit of capitalist money disappeared tomorrow, would there be less of anything else in the world? Would the buildings tip over, the roads and bridges disappear, etc. etc.?

We have built a monstrosity of an international economic system that favors the wealthy at the expense of everything else including world stability. Its demise would be a blessing.

Originally posted by no1marauder
If every bit of capitalist money disappeared tomorrow, would there be less of anything else in the world? Would the buildings tip over, the roads and bridges disappear, etc. etc.?

We have built a monstrosity of an international economic system that favors the wealthy at the expense of everything else including world stability. Its demise would be a blessing.

yes, i believe so. I was once talking with a professor of economics, an American
gentleman in my own city Glasgow, he stated that the economics system was a
monster than may at some point devour us, that was approximately ten years ago.

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou has lost the support of three of his MPs ahead of a confidence motion in his government on Friday.

Full article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15568915

Looks like the excrements are hitting the air dispenser now.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou has lost the support of three of his MPs ahead of a confidence motion in his government on Friday.

Full article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15568915

Looks like the excrements are hitting the air dispenser now.

yes but what does this mean, that the referendum shall not take place? i dont think so,
all it seems to state is that the government faces a vote of no confidence and that
elections may ensue.

Well, that didn't last long. Apparently democracy will continue to pushed aside in favor of the untrammeled rule of the bankers. Let's see what kind of protests embroil Greece now.

Originally posted by rwingett
Well, that didn't last long. Apparently democracy will continue to pushed aside in favor of the untrammeled rule of the bankers. Let's see what kind of protests embroil Greece now.

yes indeed, a last attempt to retain at least a semblance of their sovereignty. Hopefully
the Greeks themselves will see to it, i have every confidence.

As far as I can make this out, the problems in Greece arise not primarily from profligate spending, but a collapse in tax revenues which, of course, followed the demise of the banking system. Whatever else is achieved by massive spending cuts, they will not regenerate economic activity in order to restore tax revenues. The sale of public assets will in turn give private speculators a handsome present of future income streams at a bargain price and a rare opportunity to invest their cash in desirable assets when other markets are dead.

A lot of the Greek debt is owed to American and German banks. Fancy that. Merkel in particular is winning the argument that they can flipping well take their share of the losses - a "haircut" is the phrase. And they are indeed being forced to abandon a lot of their claims. Germany and France have the economic power to force that through - the Greeks on their own do not. The British, as paid up lackeys of the City of London, hate it.

In a crisis caused by the banking system and its wild west speculations, huge demands are placed on the Euro and the Euro is rising to those demands. Collectively the Europeans have far more power to do so than its separate states. i wonder how well they would have fared without the Euro. Iceland did not look too hot! But that cannot be without a political price. In particular, the Euro demands financial disciplines which during tough times are not going to be much loved.

Some of the demands being placed on Greece, Italy and indeed Ireland are to get a grip on rampant corruption and political misappropriation of public funds. Clearly that is a fundamental requirement for any state to achieve stability in a sustainable way. Putting a cap on privilige is always going to raise powerful opposition. These elites and their countless local political clients have always wanted a one way ride.

British / English opposition to a lot of this arises because of the economic and political weight of the Financial Services sector in London - and of course, a huge proportion of the Conservative Party's income is from - well, yes, THE CITY. Always the vested interests are strongly represented. Nothing useful is coming from the current British Government. It is seriously backing the wrong horses. Sarkozy was right to tell Cameron to shut up last week - he is an idiot with nothing useful to say.

This crisis may indeed be bringing a whole range of other issues to the fore in terms of the way Europe and its member states are governed and however unpleasant an experience, those issues have cried out for attention for many years.

This is not an attack on democracy or democratic accountability. It is democracy in action and pretty forcefully too. However it is not a time for mob rule of any shade. It is a time to hope the people we have put in charge pull their weight and rise to the challenge.

Originally posted by rwingett
Yes, far better to leave everything up to unelected bankers, economists and technocrats. That's worked wonders so far.

As quaint and amusingly surreal as your narrative may be I think it is preferrable to consider the Greek question with at least some inclination to be mindful of its actual historical and political context.

It was the democratically-elected government of Greece that has been scrounging EU funds for all this time, it was with the consent of the Greek people that their leaders have put into place generous entitlements which would turn out to be unsustainable in the end. While it is true that the financial crisis was a creation of the financial industry and all those advocates of deregulation, it was the Greek government that has chosen to irresponsibly gamble with the EU and the euro by having a referendum on the bailout and its terms- knowing that such a move could only stoke more uncertainty and panic in the markets.

The Greeks are only reaping the fruits of their profligate ways, their reluctance to deal with their debt seriously and competently, despite assistance from the EU, doesn't inspire much sympathy for them. They have become a liability and a parasite on the eurozone, only draining the European treasury while offering nothing in return but insolence and stubborness. Perhaps its time for a reevalutation of the country's membership of the EU.

Funny who the banks don't like it.
Sort of like capitalism saying: "We don't like democracy, we don't."

one economist, 'the eurozone is like the Hotel California, you can check out, but you
can never leave'.