Requiem for a Dream

Originally posted by moon1969
Yeah, though overall alcohol not as bad as powder for most people, but it can be bad, very bad. It being legal (except being intoxicated while driving or too intoxicated publicly) helps for to function in society. Cigarettes not a great thing to do. Marijuana is the least bad of them all, but is generally illegal.

what's this "powder" business anyway? generally powder is just cut, isn't it?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
yep. its a twisted society. as far as i'm concerned there's nothing wrong with any drugs. heck, you can get off your face on all sorts of legal stuff.
the worst part about it is that thc takes the longest to get out of your system, despite being the least harmful.
you cant get f***ed up on h and amphedamines on friday night and give a clean urine for work on monday whereas weed takes 2 months to get out of your system.

It is seriously messed up, there was a trend in london for a while of selling skunk cut with powdered glass, sent a few coughing to there deaths.

I'm not so liberal when it comes to pills. I want to see possession of all drugs become not criminal, but just so users can see there Dr about it if they want to. Pills are bad, you might take one n think its ok, but regular use sends you crazy quickly. They say that about weed but its a lie, you can smoke that til your 90 and stay quite sane, god forbid even happy.

I think Professor Nutt (unfortunate name) did not help the pro drugs argument when he released his stupid graph - below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg

It puts ectasy and lsd lower then tobacco, he must of never took it! Pills / lsd are much much more dangerous then cannabis or alcohol - you take a 6-12 hour dose in one go. even if they are not 'toxic' that still makes them much more dangerous. With alcohol and cannabis you regulate your intake, instead of being stuck for a whole day on a 'high'

Originally posted by e4chris
It is seriously messed up, there was a trend in london for a while of selling skunk cut with powdered glass, sent a few coughing to there deaths.

I'm not so liberal when it comes to pills. I want to see possession of all drugs become not criminal, but just so users can see there Dr about it if they want to. Pills are bad, you might take one n think its o ...[text shortened]... weed but its a lie, you can smoke that til your 90 and stay quite sane, god forbid even happy.

I'm replying to all your posts rather than just this one. Sorry, I don't think you are right. Although we agree on some of it. Also the evidence on drugs is badly confounded because it is illegal to take most drugs.

Alcohol: Will kill if taken in sufficient quantities. As we all know chronic overuse of alcohol can cause liver damage and a host of other physical problems - especially when combined with poor nutrition. It is legal in most countries.

Tobacco: Is a known killer that causes lung cancer, heart disease, other circulatory diseases and is also legal in AFAIK all countries.

Cannabis: there is some poor quality evidence that in combination with excessive alcohol the rate of liver damage is accelerated - pay attention to that one folks. There is no good evidence that "traditional" cannabis (i.e. not skunk) has any effect on mental health whatsoever. There is some evidence of marginal quality that modern high THC 'brands' of cannabis such as skunk can lead to poor mental health outcomes. But then again sitting in a darkened room and not doing very much can lead to poor mental health outcomes. Cannabis is strongly associated with tobacco. It is not legal in most countries.

Powdered glass in skunk: Is not a problem, it doesn't reach the lungs. Stopping that kind of thing is what your mucous membranes are for. Unless you can provide good evidence then I think any stories you have heard of deaths are urban myth.

LSD: There is no evidence that this drug causes any harm whatsoever provided the user is supervised or in a safe place. The lethal dose is huge by comparison to the active one. It is not legal in most countries.

MDMA: Is a fairly safe drug provided that the user has not been drinking alcohol and drinks sufficient, but not excessive, amounts of water. Risk of M.I. in older users, one to leave to the under 40s. As with LSD personal safety may be an issue. It is not legal in most countries.

Ketamine: Is a large animal tranquilizer and is designed for elephants. Humans should leave it alone. General anesthethics are a dicey thing and should be left to the professionals. There is a risk of both tachycardia and bradycardia, as well as other possible adverse effects. Personal safety is problematic as sharps and so on aren't noticed. I really think this should stay illegal.

Other Pills: Could be just about anything, leave alone. Legal highs are fairly unpleasant and I'm glad they've banned them. Illegal unless you've been ripped off...

Amphetamines: Nasty. Illegal.

Cocaine: Used to be the point of Coca Cola, it's undoubtably addictive, but is unlikely to be immediately fatal. Most of the best known poor outcomes are celebrities whose septum's fallen out. In the old days it was self-limiting due to the price. Illegal in most countries.

Heroin: Originally marketed as a cold cure. Addictive but less habit forming than tobacco, however the withdrawal from heroine makes up for that. The lethal dose is close enough to the active one to make it risky. Most of the health problems are associated with sharing needles. A friend of mine called Jason was an addict, off the stuff when I knew him, but he had caught hepatitis C as a sixteen year old from sharing needles. His daughter, who was less than 10 at the time, was being looked after by the mother who was still using. This did his head in. He did an art course and did well. The problem was that hanging around with students wasn't good, and the last time I saw him he was slipping back into use. He ended up stealing off his house-mates and being thrown out. Last I heard he was back off the stuff but it had taken a lot more this time. Had his background been less of a mess, or had he had access to clean works and gear, he might still be alive - I don't know for sure he's not but reports weren't good.

Methadone: Is more addictive than heroine, and harder to get off. It may help stop users taking heroin, but the cure is worse than the disease. They should prescribe heroin for addicts and undermine the black market. There was no drug problem in the U.K. until G.P.s were prevented from prescribing heroin.

Nutmeg, Bananas etc.: don't go there.

Conclusion:
During the opium wars the country that had banned opium had a massive problem. The one that hadn't didn't. This is one of those things that capitalism is bad at as if they have a market they try to expand it. The profit motive needs to be kept away from potentially addictive substances. So any retailer would have to be strictly limited by size and not allowed to advertise beyond their own shop front, and with a strict licensing scheme.

Also people would have to make a choice between cannabis and driving. William S. Burroughs, no less, in his novel "Junky" said that it was impossible to drive safely on Cannabis. If Burroughs is saying it's a bad idea, then it's a bad idea. Cannabis hangs around in the body for around a fortnight to a month. Quite how that would be enforced is an interesting question.

With those caveats then I see no particular reason all the drugs I've listed above shouldn't be legal to use.

Originally posted by DeepThought
I'm replying to all your posts rather than just this one. Sorry, I don't think you are right. Although we agree on some of it. Also the evidence on drugs is badly confounded because it is illegal to take most drugs.

Alcohol: Will kill if taken in sufficient quantities. As we all know chronic overuse of alcohol can cause liver damage and a host of ular reason all the drugs I've listed above shouldn't be legal to use.

I don't agree. Also mdma and amphetamines are a couple of atoms apart - same family so why is one good and one bad.

Cannabis is like booze, you can legalise it, greatly improve the lot of our 6 million users and not cause much harm to society - infact i'm sure you would have a quantifiable drop in alcohol related violence when it happens. All the young trouble makers would be stoned instead.

All the other drugs listed would need a health warning / disclaimer a page long before you could sell them. They are in a different league - people 'subcultures' you might say use them but they are not suitable to go on sale on mass.

Also lsd is not safe. I admit i took it once! never again! and only because i was studying chemistry at the time n somehow i thought i had earnt the right to. but it is 8 hours of trouble and other hallucinogens are very toxic, that whole family of chemicals are poisons - the trip is a side effect of being poisoned.

Originally posted by e4chris
I've posted a few pro drugs statements, cannabis especially... But they do have a dark side, I've seen it...

Have you seen this film? what do you think it says about drug users and how they should be treated (or left alone to my mind)

Your thoughts?

I'm leaning to leaving them alone. This half century old "war on drugs" has accomplished little, execpt to clog our courts and fill our jails.

Originally posted by bill718
I'm leaning to leaving them alone. This half century old "war on drugs" has accomplished little, execpt to clog our courts and fill our jails.

re Requiem for a Dream, I think its one of the most puritanical films ever...It reels you in, like, hey this is cool, then it turns!. But it is very well observed. Agree this 'war on drugs' is terrible. 'war on your next door neighbour' is what it really is.

Originally posted by e4chris
I don't agree. Also mdma and amphetamines are a couple of atoms apart - same family so why is one good and one bad.

Cannabis is like booze, you can legalise it, greatly improve the lot of our 6 million users and not cause much harm to society - infact i'm sure you would have a quantifiable drop in alcohol related violence when it happens. All the young tr c, that whole family of chemicals are poisons - the trip is a side effect of being poisoned.

A key part of my point is that drugs should not be marketed, which is a lot easier to control when they are legal. There is also a difference between legal and readily available.

Those couple of atoms matter a lot - there's only a carbon and two hydrogens difference between ethanol and methanol and you wouldn't drink meths. The statement about amphetamine being nasty was a statement of personal dislike rather than anything medical - it's only category C in the UK (unless it was changed recently) and so probably not that dangerous - rotten teeth seem to be the main risk.

The risks with LSD are connected with users hurting themselves or getting into trouble due to taking it in an unsafe environment. It's not great to be on one's own during a trip, if you were then that's probably a contributor to the bad experience. The duration is fixed by dose, as the half-life in the bloodstream is around 5 hours. The difference between an active and a lethal dose is huge - the only known case of someone dying of an overdose involved the intravenous injection of 1/3 of a gramme. The threshold dose is of the order of 25ug and the "normal" dose of the order of 100 ug.

When checking the numbers on Wikipedia I found this quote which is enlightening:

Cohen (1960) noted:[56]

"The hallucinogenic experience is so striking that many subsequent disturbances may be attributed to it without further justification. The highly suggestible or hysterical individual would tend to focus on his LSD experience to explain subsequent illness. Patients have complained to Abramson that their LSD exposure produced migraine headaches and attacks of influenza up to a year later. One Chinese girl became paraplegic and ascribed that catastrophe to LSD. It so happened that these people were all in the control group and had received nothing but tap water."

Originally posted by DeepThought
A key part of my point is that drugs should not be marketed, which is a lot easier to control when they are legal. There is also a difference between legal and readily available.

Those couple of atoms matter a lot - there's only a carbon and two hydrogens difference between ethanol and methanol and you wouldn't drink meths. The statement about amphe at these people were all in the control group and had received nothing but tap water."

I remember a story about a guy who took lsd and went on a trampoline, and 5 years later was still in the asylum going weee weeee ......

re methadone, it pulls people out of the black market, that is its key benefit, why its very important. it means the user is free from those financial pressures.

Originally posted by e4chris
It is seriously messed up, there was a trend in london for a while of selling skunk cut with powdered glass, sent a few coughing to there deaths.

I'm not so liberal when it comes to pills. I want to see possession of all drugs become not criminal, but just so users can see there Dr about it if they want to. Pills are bad, you might take one n think its o ...[text shortened]... l and cannabis you regulate your intake, instead of being stuck for a whole day on a 'high'

There's this big war going on between pharmaceutical companies that want to turn every drug into a little pill which it can produce soley and make max profit from.
Luckily the best drugs are found in nature.
Opium. Weed. DMT. Cocoa. Kava. And many others.

Apparently a lot of ancient cultures knew the uses for these plants.
And alcohol is made from rotting fruit.

As long as we have access to these drugs, which were put here,as well as the receptor cites in our brains and spleens to respond to these drugs, then the connections to the past will always be open.

Of course psycotropic stimulants are recommended only a few times as you should be able to get that high naturally once you have already opened the neural pathways.

Originally posted by DeepThought
A key part of my point is that drugs should not be marketed, which is a lot easier to control when they are legal. There is also a difference between legal and readily available.

Those couple of atoms matter a lot - there's only a carbon and two hydrogens difference between ethanol and methanol and you wouldn't drink meths. The statement about amphe ...[text shortened]... at these people were all in the control group and had received nothing but tap water."

There have also been alcoholic wife beaters cured by a handful of lsd sessions. These subjects went on to become drug free altogether ,(I think a couple may have smoked ciggies), but basically they all had a similar insight . ie. that they were hurting the ones they loved and that their drinking was a direct problem associated with their situations.

I suspect lsd-free hypnosis may have worked as well, but the lsd seemed to give them extra focus into their conditions , as being explained to them by the medical examiner.

Originally posted by DeepThought
I'm replying to all your posts rather than just this one. Sorry, I don't think you are right. Although we agree on some of it. Also the evidence on drugs is badly confounded because it is illegal to take most drugs.

Alcohol: Will kill if taken in sufficient quantities. As we all know chronic overuse of alcohol can cause liver damage and a host of ular reason all the drugs I've listed above shouldn't be legal to use.

It's not dangerous to drive on pot, maybe for a handful of idiots, but then again they should know netter. I do.

As to your conclusion I pretty much agree, though somewhat limited.

As to your summary of drugs and their function , I think you are way off and have bought into propaganda:

1. The worst thing about alcohol is the way it makes a minority of decent people act like complete arses - only to forget what they did the night before.
While it is true that some suffer physical problems from prolonged drinking, there are also many life time drinkers who live to be happy active people into their nineties and beyond.

2. Generally the stats change dramatically with less than a pack a day smokers. Otherwise listen to your lungs, if you cough too much, you are probably smoking too much.

3. Cannabis can be helpful in negating alcohol and smoking cigs.

4.LSD can be unsafe, but that largely comes from the internal fear that is amplified on the trip . Leave the fear behind and experience something akin to a NDE safely.

5.Amphetamines. Very helpful in small controlled doses.

6.Heroin addicts are a sorry lot. 95% of them wreck their lives slowly or quickly. You cant win with Heroin/opiates. But your friend can beat it. It's not that hard. They complain about the physical addiction but it's really the mental side of it that is the worse.
Maybe he might keep on using for a while, but remind him that if you want to feel good you'll have to feel bad as well. And the longer you put it off with more top-ups, the worse it will be.
So if you lay in bed for a few days feeling s**t, it's not so bad. That's honest. that's what your spirit likes,(as opposed to your ego). You just gotta give your mind something else to focus on. Preferably a lot of things.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
It's not dangerous to drive on pot, maybe for a handful of idiots, but then again they should know netter. I do.

As to your conclusion I pretty much agree, though somewhat limited.

As to your summary of drugs and their function , I think you are way off and have bought into propaganda:

1. The worst thing about alcohol is the way it makes a m ...[text shortened]... o). You just gotta give your mind something else to focus on. Preferably a lot of things.

Holy Karoly!!!!! Where did your knowledge come from?

Originally posted by joe beyser
Holy Karoly!!!!! Where did your knowledge come from?

re driving stoned

YouTube

🙂 I don't have a driving license and my town is much safer for that!


edit - another case!

YouTube

Originally posted by joe beyser
Holy Karoly!!!!! Where did your knowledge come from?

Personal experience, other people's experience.

All my friends thought I was going to die at 27. Now I'm 38 and I could kick any of their buts.
I'm over most of it. Very small infrequent doses of quality.
But I am an exception to the rule. Most of my friends have had way more problems with drugs. Physical or usually mental.

Originally posted by e4chris
re driving stoned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmP_t4_lpzo

🙂 I don't have a driving license and my town is much safer for that!


edit - another case!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06iOcy_wiVI

Just don't drive if you're not up for it. Heck, sometimes people are too smashed on endorphins to drive.