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@no1marauder saidYet the UN's plan lead to Israel declaring independence anyway (with the U.S. formally acknowledging them as a state) triggering the first Arab-Israeli war, with continuing conflicts to this day over borders.
"The United Nations General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending partitioning Palestine into Arab and Jewish States with economic union between them and that Jerusalem be a separate area to be administered by the United Nations for an initial period of ten years. The recommendation was not legally binding. The Arab population of Palestine and the Arab States ...[text shortened]... /international-law-and-the-arabisraeli-conflict/1947-partition-plan/BF9BEE2E6380D9CEAD0C710C6AC51C63
So what is your issue? Israel accepted a plan that was drawn up the UN after they were still reeling from the tragedy of the Holocaust, that Arabs understandably rejected because Palestinian land was being taken away. This is how the conflict began, which all high school stuff.
@vivify saidThe UN recommendation was never accepted or implemented. Israel when it unilaterally declared independence never promised to stay within the borders outlined by the Plan and didn't.
Yet the UN's plan lead to Israel declaring independence anyway (with the U.S. formally acknowledging them as a state) triggering the first Arab-Israeli war, with continuing conflicts to this day over borders.
So what is your issue? Israel accepted a plan that was drawn up the UN after they were still reeling from the tragedy of the Holocaust, that Arabs understandably re ...[text shortened]... Palestinian land was being taken away. This is how the conflict began, which all high school stuff.
So it is historically inaccurate to say the UN divided Palestine. Force of arms did that.
@vivify saidI do not accept that there is anything like moral equivalence between an oppressor using it to oppress and the oppressed using it to resist oppression.
You don't know my posting history on this subject. I take issue with anyone who declares one side a good guy and the other a bad guy.
There are threads where I'm responding to conservatives and have said the exact same thing you are. No1Maurader can attest to the fact that blasted Israel for taking over Palestinian territory and for their blockade. I've also criticized ...[text shortened]... 'll see me catch hate from conservatives when I blast them for trying ot make Israel look blameless.
Palestinians have a right to resist with force. They are bound by the laws of war, of course, and attacks targeting civilians should be condemned. However, Israel makes no distinction between lawful actions against military and paramilitary units and attacks on civilians labelling both "terrorism".
@no1marauder saidYou're correct that Israel expanded territory beyond the Partition's borders but it doesn't change the fact that Israel just ran with a plan drawn up by the UN. Britain, who controlled the Palestinian territory, handed plans over to the UN for a partition.
The UN recommendation was never accepted or implemented. Israel when it unilaterally declared independence never promised to stay within the borders outlined by the Plan and didn't.
So it is historically inaccurate to say the UN divided Palestine. Force of arms did that.
So it is accurate to say to the UN divided up Palestine, it's just that their division was never officially accepted...hence the decades of ensuing wars.
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@shallow-blue saidRe-read my previous reply to you. I didn't "blame" you for anything. I merely pointed out that you're judging my position on Israel based on only one thread; had you read my debates against conservatives, you'd come to the opposite conclusion about me.
Symmetry, symmetry. Both of you blaming me for telling me you're one another's mirror images. Both of you using the same arguments against the other one. How predictable. How despicable.
I don't have a pro or anti-Israel/Palestinian stance; there are simply times when I can see where one or the other is coming from. It's the same with invasion of Ukraine; while I am against Putin in this situation Russia does have a legitimate argument regarding NATO's history and expansion.
But I didn't "blame" you for anything. There was no criticism toward you in that post.
@no1marauder saidI agree with everything you're saying in this particular post. Palestinians have been wronged since the UN first draw up partition plans. At the same time, I can't expect Israel to do nothing as Palestinians continually attack them. This is a nuanced issue whether you want to admit it or not.
I do not accept that there is anything like moral equivalence between an oppressor using it to oppress and the oppressed using it to resist oppression.
Palestinians have a right to resist with force. They are bound by the laws of war, of course, and attacks targeting civilians should be condemned. However, Israel makes no distinction between lawful actions against military and paramilitary units and attacks on civilians labelling both "terrorism".
@vivify saidI expect Israel to honestly negotiate a two-State solution. For two decades they have done everything they can to wreck the possibility of that occurring by massively increasing their illegal settlements on the West Bank.
I agree with everything you're saying in this particular post. Palestinians have been wronged since the UN first draw up partition plans. At the same time, I can't expect Israel to do nothing as Palestinians continually attack them. This is a nuanced issue whether you want to admit it or not.
Sometimes it really is black and white.
@no1marauder saidoff to a great start...
I expect Israel to honestly negotiate a two-State solution. For two decades they have done everything they can to wreck the possibility of that occurring by massively increasing their illegal settlements on the West Bank.
Sometimes it really is black and white.
"Just hours after President Biden concluded his three-day visit to the region, the Israeli military carried out airstrikes on what it said was a Hamas-run Palestine enclave, made in response to a pair of rocket attacks."
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jul/16/israel-strikes-gaza-after-rocket-attacks-hours-aft/
@mott-the-hoople saidIsn't it great how the headlines are always the response rather than the initial rocket attacks that were the provocation?
off to a great start...
"Just hours after President Biden concluded his three-day visit to the region, the Israeli military carried out airstrikes on what it said was a Hamas-run Palestine enclave, made in response to a pair of rocket attacks."
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jul/16/israel-strikes-gaza-after-rocket-attacks-hours-aft/
@vivify saidJesus H Christ.
You're correct that Israel expanded territory beyond the Partition's borders but it doesn't change the fact that Israel just ran with a plan drawn up by the UN. Britain, who controlled the Palestinian territory, handed plans over to the UN for a partition.
So it is accurate to say to the UN divided up Palestine, it's just that their division was never officially accepted...hence the decades of ensuing wars.
The UN Plan was a nonbinding recommendation - the GA had no power to partition anything. It was rejected and never put into place.
The UK didn't even vote for the Partition Plan (it abstained) and refused to enforce it because of Palestinian opposition:
"In a British cabinet meeting at 4 December 1947, it was decided that the Mandate would end at midnight 14 May 1948, the complete withdrawal by 1 August 1948, and Britain would not enforce the UN partition plan.[142] On 11 December 1947, Britain announced the Mandate would end at midnight 14 May 1948 and its sole task would be to complete withdrawal by 1 August 1948.[143] During the period in which the British withdrawal was completed, Britain refused to share the administration of Palestine with a proposed UN transition regime, to allow the UN Palestine Commission to establish a presence in Palestine earlier than a fortnight before the end of the Mandate, to allow the creation of official Jewish and Arab militias or to assist in smoothly handing over territory or authority to any successor.[144][145]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
War was ongoing well before the British left. It is simply not true that the UN "divided Palestine" just by recommending something that was not implemented; Palestine was divided by force of arms.
@sh76 saidYour two decade protestations of Israeli blamelessness remain intact I see.
Isn't it great how the headlines are always the response rather than the initial rocket attacks that were the provocation?
The brutal oppression of the Palestinian People is the "provocation". Of course, that isn't a headline.
@no1marauder saidOkay. You have a good point here.
Jesus H Christ.
The UN Plan was a nonbinding recommendation - the GA had no power to partition anything. It was rejected and never put into place.
The UK didn't even vote for the Partition Plan (it abstained) and refused to enforce it because of Palestinian opposition:
"In a British cabinet meeting at 4 December 1947, it was decided that the Mandate would end at ...[text shortened]... ne" just by recommending something that was not implemented; Palestine was divided by force of arms.
@no1marauder saidI agree with your "for two decades" statement in that the recent history of the conflict shows gradual increase in human rights violations, like the illegal settlements, by Israel.
I expect Israel to honestly negotiate a two-State solution. For two decades they have done everything they can to wreck the possibility of that occurring by massively increasing their illegal settlements on the West Bank.
Sometimes it really is black and white.
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@vivify saidAs much as marauder and Metal don't have a pro- or anti-Russia stance, sure.
I don't have a pro or anti-Israel/Palestinian stance;
All of you keep arguing on the side of those who murder children and the elderly. We'll all know how neutral you are.