https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2018/02/07/engagement-ring-proposal-wedding-etiquette/1075393001/
This article mentions different states have varying laws on the return of engagement rings.
Some states consider engagement rings an unconditional gift regardless of whether the marriage occurs while some states have laws requiring the ring to be returned if the engage is broken off. Other states consider the gift-giving aspect of rings "complete" once the marriage takes place and is the receiver's to keep, even if the marriage ends. Other states consider engagement rings "marital property", the value of which is split upon divorce.
Should engagement rings be returned if the wedding is called off? What about if divorce occurs?
@vivify saidDepends on the circumstances.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2018/02/07/engagement-ring-proposal-wedding-etiquette/1075393001/
This article mentions different states have varying laws on the return of engagement rings.
Some states consider engagement rings an unconditional gift regardless of whether the marriage occurs while some states have laws requiring the ring to be retur ...[text shortened]...
Should engagement rings be returned if the wedding is called off? What about if divorce occurs?
If your left standing at the alter, it would be a very obnoxious individual who demanded the engagement ring back but I can’t think why the aggrieved party would want to keep it other than to set it in a brick and throw it back through their window
30 Sep 22
@vivify saidJust like any other asset, it should be contractually determined.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2018/02/07/engagement-ring-proposal-wedding-etiquette/1075393001/
This article mentions different states have varying laws on the return of engagement rings.
Some states consider engagement rings an unconditional gift regardless of whether the marriage occurs while some states have laws requiring the ring to be retur ...[text shortened]...
Should engagement rings be returned if the wedding is called off? What about if divorce occurs?
Its really interesting to me too how different states deal with divorce in particular. In New York for example former spouses can ask for their partners future earning potential. Yikes. Good luck figuring that out when you're in grad school.
@wildgrass saidEasier said than done when talking about marriage.
Just like any other asset, it should be contractually determined.
Most people want marriage to be a romantic affair rather than a business venture. True, love doesn't pay the bills but discussing allocation of assets post-divorce puts a sour mood on getting married.
@vivify saidI mean, you're talking about the legality though right. The last scenario in your OP makes the most sense in terms of property rights, that it would belong to the purchaser until the time when the marriage contract is signed, thus splitting assets (unless there's a separate prenuptial).
Easier said than done when talking about marriage.
Most people want marriage to be a romantic affair rather than a business venture. True, love doesn't pay the bills but discussing allocation of assets post-divorce puts a sour mood on getting married.
Coming from someone happily married, there's no reason to treat a ring any different from a jacket.
@wildgrass saidI was looking for both legal and moralistic arguments.
I mean, you're talking about the legality though right. The last scenario in your OP makes the most sense in terms of property rights, that it would belong to the purchaser until the time when the marriage contract is signed, thus splitting assets (unless there's a separate prenuptial).
Just because something is legal doesn't make it right, and just because something isn't necessarily immoral that doesn't mean it should be legal, like keeping a wedding ring even though the relationship is over.
The legal argument you made seems like a legit one.
30 Sep 22
@vivify saidThe more common rule seems to be that engagement rings are impliedly conditional. That is, the assumption is that there will be a marriage. If the marriage is called off, the condition is not met. When I learned (and taught) about this, my recollection is that the most common rule is that the ring must be returned regardless of fault. From a logical perspective, this makes the most sense to me. Regardless of whether it's stated, it seems obvious to me that the gift of an engagement ring is based on an assumed condition that the marriage happens.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2018/02/07/engagement-ring-proposal-wedding-etiquette/1075393001/
This article mentions different states have varying laws on the return of engagement rings.
Some states consider engagement rings an unconditional gift regardless of whether the marriage occurs while some states have laws requiring the ring to be retur ...[text shortened]...
Should engagement rings be returned if the wedding is called off? What about if divorce occurs?
Once the marriage happens, I don't think divorce matters. As to whether it's marital property, that should be treated the same as any other gift received by one spouse during the marriage.
@vivify saidGood point, legal or moralistic. If you are talking legal, that is a can of worms, as you get into contracts. VERY thick books are written on contracts, oral, written, implied , express,....
I was looking for both legal and moralistic arguments.
Just because something is legal doesn't make it right, and just because something isn't necessarily immoral that doesn't mean it should be legal, like keeping a wedding ring even though the relationship is over.
The legal argument you seems like a legit one.
Here, an aleatory contract might apply, in that there is a 'trigger' for the event to occur. Does the 'event', for her to own the ring, occur at moment of marriage? If so, then it is his ring till marriage occurs. Could get sticky.
Morally, it may be a gift at the moment he hands it to her. My 2 cents, it has an overall meaning, as the first 'trigger' to start everyone down the aisle. If the aisle doesn't occur, everything is canceled, including the gift of a ring. It was a qualified gift, was it not? BUT, what if the guy cancels the wedding? I think she gives him the finger and keeps it! If she cancels, she gives it back. A no-brainer.
30 Sep 22
@sh76 saidI like your thinking here, as well, but it is a stretch for her to give it back if HE does not 'perform' under the 'contract'. So, she keeps it in that case.
The more common rule seems to be that engagement rings are impliedly conditional. That is, the assumption is that there will be a marriage. If the marriage is called off, the condition is not met. When I learned (and taught) about this, my recollection is that the most common rule is that the ring must be returned regardless of fault. From a logical perspective, this makes the m ...[text shortened]... perty, that should be treated the same as any other gift received by one spouse during the marriage.
@vivify saidMy answer? Liberal women? 'Gimme it!'
I wonder if the responses would be different if there were more women on this forum.
Did you see where Kev today said that no liberal is about getting a piece of some else's pie? amazing. You fellers are imploding as we near the elections.
30 Sep 22
@vivify saidshould engagement rings be bought?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2018/02/07/engagement-ring-proposal-wedding-etiquette/1075393001/
This article mentions different states have varying laws on the return of engagement rings.
Some states consider engagement rings an unconditional gift regardless of whether the marriage occurs while some states have laws requiring the ring to be retur ...[text shortened]...
Should engagement rings be returned if the wedding is called off? What about if divorce occurs?
but seriously, yes. If one bought a ring for this ritual (dumb ritual imo) with his/her own money, they should get to keep that ring if the purpose for which it was bought no longer applies (divorce/breaking off the engagement).
Should as in "you should do this if you're a decent person". I don't care to talk about laws. Whatever they are, you adhere to them because you have no choice, no point discussing over them.
@vivify saidThe same logic should apply to an engagement gift given from a woman to a man (or man to man or woman to woman for that matter). I don't mean a pair of gloves. But if an woman gives a man she just got engaged to a new Baume and Mercier, the same logic would seem to apply.
I wonder if the responses would be different if there were more women on this forum.
30 Sep 22
@averagejoe1 saidOnce they both say I do, it's a marriage, even if it's annulled (for whatever reason) afterwards.
I like your thinking here, as well, but it is a stretch for her to give it back if HE does not 'perform' under the 'contract'. So, she keeps it in that case.