@thelistener saidMy post was crystal clear, I'm unsure why you cannot comprehend it.
So you are one of the posters who admits that that thing, the blob, (been called a zygote or other such nonsense) is a child....I'd thought you were in the other camp that the murder is OK through the 9th month since it is not a baby yet. A confusing lot.
So you write on that 'the child' could be affected. Why are you concerned about Alcohol hurting it, but, on the other hand, saying that cutting it's spine and yanking it out is OK? A confusing lot, indeed.
@vivify saidWe advocate for a woman's right to abortion precisely because we don't consider the fetus its own person. If you start advocating for women being forbidden to engage in any activity that might endanger the fetus you are going back on the notion that the fetus is not a person and are claiming that not only it is one but its rights trump the woman's. Is that what you're saying?
What don't you get? In one scenario, the child could live a terrible existence due to alcohol while in the womb; the other, the child wont be born.
Anyone who can't see the difference between an abortion and lifelong suffering is dense.
@wolfgang59 saidThe woman drinking is also before it has come into existence. If you consider abortion ok because the child doesn't exist as a person, then nothing the mother does until the child is considered a person can be held against her legally.
Abortion is before the child has come into existence.
Fetal Alcohol Syndrome will adversely affect the child all its life.
Is the fetus a person or is it not. The conservative right's entire argument against abortion is that the fetus will grow up into a person and it should be given the same protections one would give a child, to the detriment of the mother's rights. By considering the fetus will eventually grow into a child which has been harmed by the mother's alcohol consumption you are basically supporting the conservative right to make the case that abortion should also be considered as harmful to the very real human being that is a fetus.
@wolfgang59 saidit wasn't.
My post was crystal clear, I'm unsure why you cannot comprehend it.
It opens up a lot of followup scenarios that you haven't considered.
@zahlanzi saidThere are lots of laws prohibiting harm to animals. That doesn't make them people.
The woman drinking is also before it has come into existence. If you consider abortion ok because the child doesn't exist as a person, then nothing the mother does until the child is considered a person can be held against her legally.
Is the fetus a person or is it not. The conservative right's entire argument against abortion is that the fetus will grow up into a perso ...[text shortened]... ase that abortion should also be considered as harmful to the very real human being that is a fetus.
@zahlanzi saidThat does not make my post unclear.
It opens up a lot of followup scenarios that you haven't considered.
What part did you not understand?
@zahlanzi saidNot sure about the legality or not but it is irrelevant to this discussion.
The woman drinking is also before it has come into existence. If you consider abortion ok because the child doesn't exist as a person, then nothing the mother does until the child is considered a person can be held against her legally.
@wolfgang59 saidwe're talking about the legality. It's the only way you can enforce the thread's question one way or the other. Should pregnant women be denied alcohol? If yes, you need to make a law about it. If no, you need to make a law about it.
Not sure about the legality or not but it is irrelevant to this discussion.
@athousandyoung saidThat's perhaps because it is a separate issue that doesn't have anything to do with this issue?
There are lots of laws prohibiting harm to animals. That doesn't make them people.
Are you claiming the fetus is an animal and this should be an animal abuse case? Are you claiming the fetus is someone's property and this should be a vandalism case?
Maybe the fetus is a river and dumping toxic waste (alcohol) in it is an environmental issue?
What are you talking about ?
Yes there are numerous cases where you're prohibited of doing harm to something that have nothing to do with one another, and one law in one case doesn't imply whatsoever that any other case of doing harm should be treated the same.
On what grounds are you claiming the pregnant woman shouldn't imbibe alcohol other than the fact that the fetus is a person with rights?
@wolfgang59 saidthe fact that it opens additional questions is precisely what makes it unclear.
That does not make my post unclear.
What part did you not understand?
"What part did you not understand?"
addressed it my reply already. The one you responded to with simply declaring "the legality is irrelevant", which was another thing you haven't thought through.
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@zahlanzi saidWho is "We"? Is there some liberal hive mind you belong to? Is there even a "you", or are "we"( as in all the independent contributors) conversing with the Borg?
We advocate for a woman's right to abortion precisely because we don't consider the fetus its own person. If you start advocating for women being forbidden to engage in any activity that might endanger the fetus you are going back on the notion that the fetus is not a person and are claiming that not only it is one but its rights trump the woman's. Is that what you're saying?
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I think that deep down Wolfgang knows ( whether or not he will admit so ) that there is no magical thing which happens when a child is moved spatially 1 ft in any direction outside the womb that suddenly and inexplicably humanity is bestowed upon them. You on the other hand ( lacking serious cognitive ability - no doubt from a mother abusing alcohol while carrying whatever "you" think "you" are ) seem to believe in magic?
@joe-shmo saidI'm still waiting on your opinion about whether a fetus should be given a cut of the inheritance.
I think that deep down Wolfgang knows ( whether or not he will admit so ) that there is no magical thing which happens when a child is moved spatially 1 ft in any direction outside the womb that suddenly and inexplicably humanity is bestowed upon them. You on the other hand ( lacking serious cognitive ability - no doubt from a mother abusing alcohol while carrying whatever "you" think "you" are ) seem to believe in magic?
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@athousandyoung saidPlease remind me: How is that a relevant line of reasoning which sheds light on the problem of a mother drinking heavily while with child?
I'm still waiting on your opinion about whether a fetus should be given a cut of the inheritance.