Originally posted by FMF
Having had a bit of a look, I find that the suicide rate among the non-military population of the U.S. is 12.0 per 100,000 [2009]

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf

And I also find that according to the sources used to write the wiki article about suicide in the U.S., there is a 2009 U.S. Army report that indicates [b]military veterans ...[text shortened]... active-duty soldiers are dying from suicide than in combat in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is there a way to reconcile the differences in the statistics the two of you are quoting?

Originally posted by FMF
I suppose it could be argued that Obama should take a portion of the blame. But how does that weigh against the contribution of U.S. military culture. Here's what U.S. Army Major General Dana Pittard [commander of Fort Bliss army base] had to say on his blog [according to a BBC report I heard]: [b]"I am personally fed up with soldiers who are choosing to take th ...[text shortened]... to get to grips with the problem if attitudes like those of Maj. Gen. Pittard are prevalent?

What would you prefer his reaction to be?

Originally posted by FMF
Last year more serving U.S. troops died as a result of suicide than were killed in combat in Afghanistan [and this does not include the alarming rate among veterans]. Why are so many soldiers - in increasing numbers - taking their own lives? What can be done to reduce the number?

Some of them may feel a little guilty for what has been done. Plenty are speaking out about their missions in Afghanistan and Iraq. Living the life of a combat soldier is hard as well. Add some post traumatic stress with the fact their lives stateside may have fallen apart and the numbers of troops, it isn't hard to see why there is a high rate.

Originally posted by normbenign
What would you prefer his reaction to be?

One that was more conducive to fostering a military culture that enabled people, who might be inclined to take their own lives, to get the help that they need.

Originally posted by joe beyser
Some of them may feel a little guilty for what has been done. Plenty are speaking out about their missions in Afghanistan and Iraq. Living the life of a combat soldier is hard as well. Add some post traumatic stress with the fact their lives stateside may have fallen apart and the numbers of troops, it isn't hard to see why there is a high rate.

I can understand suicide, and I can understand there being suicides by military personnel. The questions are: why is the rate increasing? And what can be done to reduce the number?

Originally posted by FMF
I can understand suicide, and I can understand there being suicides by military personnel. The questions are: why is the rate increasing? And what can be done to reduce the number?

Stop having needless war?

Originally posted by normbenign
Is there a way to reconcile the differences in the statistics the two of you are quoting?

Just tell us which "statistics" you want to believe, normbenign. I have never, ever seen you accept any "statistics" on this forum that were at odds with your stance on something. Not even once. Time and time again - after your argument has been damaged or dismantled by some facts or data - you've resorted to the old "Oh that's nothing, you can prove anything with statistics" chestnut! So why not just tell us which "statistics" you want to believe and then we'll know your stance and we'll know the "statistics" that you reckon back it. 😀

Originally posted by joe beyser
Stop having needless war?

I am clearly referring to it on an operational level. The 'reduce war' thing is of course relevant and has been mentioned a few times already on this thread, but the discussion here could perhaps be a little bit more about what can an army in the field do about an increasing number of its personnel killing themselves. And is there something different about PTS nowadays that has led to this phenomenon or has its prominence as a perceived factor got something to do with PTS not being recognized or acknowledged in the past?

Originally posted by FMF
I am clearly referring to it on an operational level. The 'reduce war' thing is of course relevant and has been mentioned a few times already on this thread, but the discussion here could perhaps be a little bit more about what can an army in the field do about an increasing number of its personnel killing themselves. And is there something different about PTS n ...[text shortened]... erceived factor got something to do with PTS not being recognized or acknowledged in the past?

To your last point, I think the answer is that it's being acknowledged now. The number of homeless Vietnam-era veterans in the US is shameful.

Originally posted by FMF
One that was more conducive to fostering a military culture that enabled people, who might be inclined to take their own lives, to get the help that they need.

The military is a harsh environment, and a lot of people wash out early on. I hardly expect military commanders to be fuzzy warm type people.

Originally posted by FMF
Just tell us which "statistics" you want to believe, normbenign. I have never, ever seen you accept any "statistics" on this forum that were at odds with your stance on something. Not even once. Time and time again - after your argument has been damaged or dismantled by some facts or data - you've resorted to the old "Oh that's nothing, you can prove anything wi ...[text shortened]... we'll know your stance and we'll know the "statistics" that you reckon back it. 😀

I haven't a dog in this fight. I see people quoting stats that are at odds and wonder whose are just BS. My initial guess would be that the numbers would somewhat similar. Greater hardship and stress in the military, but also a population that is limited and voluntary, and well trained to deal with the stress.

I would guess that the factors might cancel each other, but I don't know.

Originally posted by FMF
I am clearly referring to it on an operational level. The 'reduce war' thing is of course relevant and has been mentioned a few times already on this thread, but the discussion here could perhaps be a little bit more about what can an army in the field do about an increasing number of its personnel killing themselves. And is there something different about PTS n ...[text shortened]... erceived factor got something to do with PTS not being recognized or acknowledged in the past?

There may be nothing to do at an operational level. The soldiers you have are what you have to work with. There may be cultural issues in the society at large, which end up effecting the stock the military has to depend on.

What are some possible factors? Feminization of males culturally. Dependence of drugs. Propaganda in government schools conflicting with values of parents.

Perhaps it is the nature of the fights the US military gets into, and that young soldiers don't believe their country is behind them.

Originally posted by normbenign
The military is a harsh environment, and a lot of people wash out early on. I hardly expect military commanders to be fuzzy warm type people.

Do you think the increasing rate of suicide is a problem? If you don't that's fine. If you do, then if a failure to understand or manage or react appropriately to stress in personnel who might be prone to take their own lives is contributing to the suicide rate, it surely has to be addressed?

Originally posted by normbenign
I see people quoting stats that are at odds and wonder whose are just BS.

Like I said, I have never seen you accept any "statistics" that contradicted your statistics-less opinion about something. I cannot recall even a single occasion.

Originally posted by FMF
Do you think the increasing rate of suicide is a problem? If you don't that's fine. If you do, then if a failure to understand or manage or react appropriately to stress in personnel who might be prone to take their own lives is contributing to the suicide rate, it surely has to be addressed?

Of course suicides are a problem, but all problems aren't fixable. Even determining the real cause can be problematic, since we know correlation isn't causation.