Originally posted by FMF Like I said, I have never seen you accept any "statistics" that contradicted your statistics-less opinion about something. I cannot recall even a single occasion.
I accept the critique, and I am always going to be skeptical of arguments strictly based on statistics, and especially those that are of questionable accuracy.
The more factors that converge on any matter, the more complex the relationship of the factors, the less reliable statistical analysis is in determining causation.
I am trapped sometimes in accepting statistical rationales. Most people have. Unless stats are collected in some relatively scientific manner, they are nearly worthless in determining causation in complex issues.
Originally posted by normbenign Of course suicides are a problem, but all problems aren't fixable. Even determining the real cause can be problematic, since we know correlation isn't causation.
So your answer to the OP question "What can be done to reduce the number?" is 'Do nothing'? Am I understanding you right.
Originally posted by normbenign I accept the critique, and I am always going to be skeptical of arguments strictly based on statistics, and especially those that are of questionable accuracy.
The more factors that converge on any matter, the more complex the relationship of the factors, the less reliable statistical analysis is in determining causation.
I am trapped sometimes in a ...[text shortened]... atively scientific manner, they are nearly worthless in determining causation in complex issues.
But you do use "statistics" sometimes when they suit your argument.
Originally posted by FMF I am clearly referring to it on an operational level. The 'reduce war' thing is of course relevant and has been mentioned a few times already on this thread, but the discussion here could perhaps be a little bit more about what can an army in the field do about an increasing number of its personnel killing themselves. And is there something different about PTS n ...[text shortened]... erceived factor got something to do with PTS not being recognized or acknowledged in the past?
Don't have any facts or figures specifically for the use of psychotropic drug use such as prosaic,paxil,etc. but their use can cause suicide as a side effect.
Originally posted by FMF So your answer to the OP question "What can be done to reduce the number?" is 'Do nothing'? Am I understanding you right.
Never said that. You have a habit of drawing my conclusions for me, while not stating your own. I see it as a difficult problem, and doing the right things may be very hard to identify. If suicide is very prevalent in the general population, then it probably will be reflected in a volunteer military.
Originally posted by FMF But you do use "statistics" sometimes when they suit your argument.
Occasionally, but I recognize the limitations of argument from statistics. Stats are a collection of anecdotes. They are rarely collected in any scientific manner. When I do, others will usually correct me.
Originally posted by normbenign Never said that. You have a habit of drawing my conclusions for me, while not stating your own. I see it as a difficult problem, and doing the right things may be very hard to identify. If suicide is very prevalent in the general population, then it probably will be reflected in a volunteer military.
Just doing something doesn't solve anything.
So your answer to the OP question "What can be done to reduce the number?" is 'There is nothing I can identify'? Am I understanding you right?
Originally posted by joe beyser Don't have any facts or figures specifically for the use of psychotropic drug use such as prosaic,paxil,etc. but their use can cause suicide as a side effect.
This is an area I think should be looked at seriously. The military is still heavily male, and boys are most often started on drugs early with Ritalin as young as 4 years old. Often they graduate to other psychotropics as they get older. I believe there is a correlation between these drugs and mass shootings but it is hard to prove causality.
Originally posted by FMF So your answer to the OP question "What can be done to reduce the number?" is 'There is nothing I can identify'? Am I understanding you right?
It is simply, "I don't know". I think a clue lies in the heavy use of drugs, especially on elementary school boys. I don't know if that is provable, but it needs to be investigated.
Originally posted by normbenign I accept the critique, and I am always going to be skeptical of arguments strictly based on statistics, and especially those that are of questionable accuracy.
The more factors that converge on any matter, the more complex the relationship of the factors, the less reliable statistical analysis is in determining causation.
I am trapped sometimes in a ...[text shortened]... atively scientific manner, they are nearly worthless in determining causation in complex issues.
In general, causation can never be determined using the scientific method. All it does is determine correlations.
Originally posted by normbenign This is an area I think should be looked at seriously. The military is still heavily male, and boys are most often started on drugs early with Ritalin as young as 4 years old. Often they graduate to other psychotropics as they get older. I believe there is a correlation between these drugs and mass shootings but it is hard to prove causality.
How in the world did humanity get along for so long without these drugs? Makes me wonder what the real purpose for them is.
Suicide rate in U.S. miltary
26 Jan '13 03:53
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