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Originally posted by RedmikeAye, fair enough.
Read what I said - my instincts are that it is bollox. Nobody said you were talking bollox - you may well have read such an article - I've not suggested otherwise.
Edit - you didn't actually present this notion as your personal opinion, rather an article you had read.
I might have been a wee bit on the defensive side there. But I do appreciate that its rubbish to half-quote something without any solid references.. and its doing me head in as I have no clue where the hell it was...
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Originally posted by FurorThis site says 35 million Chines dead in WW2, and it looks 'official'.
I am more concerned with what the japanese did the chinese. It is said that Hitler was responsible for the deaths of 6 million jews--the chinese blame the japanese military for directly or indirectly causing the deaths of over 50,000,000 chinese.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/celebrations/128172.htm
Still massive numbers.
Originally posted by PeachyNo problem. I'm sure surfing the web looking for it will be a dirty business, with neo-nazi sites a-plenty.
Aye, fair enough.
I might have been a wee bit on the defensive side there. But I do appreciate that its rubbish to half-quote something without any solid references.. and its doing me head in as I have no clue where the hell it was...
Originally posted by RedmikeThe "Second World War" by Martin Gilbert estimates that six million Chinese were killed in WWII between 1937 and 1945. The Soviet Union suffered the most deaths, 20 to 27 million. Japan: 3 million. Germany: 7 million.
This site says 35 million Chines dead in WW2, and it looks 'official'.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/celebrations/128172.htm
Still massive numbers.
No one will ever know for sure and other historians state different figures but all I've ever read are reasonably close to Gilbert's stats.
Originally posted by DelmerI don't disagree with this - I'm really trying to say that 50 million is high, as even the chinese official sites don't claim that number.
The "Second World War" by Martin Gilbert estimates that six million Chinese were killed in WWII between 1937 and 1945. The Soviet Union suffered the most deaths, 20 to 27 million. Japan: 3 million. Germany: 7 million.
No one will ever know for sure and other historians state different figures but all I've ever read are reasonably close to Gilbert's stats.
Originally posted by RedmikeYes, I've seen stats that use 50 million for all confirmed deaths directly attributable to WWII. Of course millions more died in the years immediately following the end of the war that were never included in most stats: from lingering injuries, starvation, exposure, disease, rebuilding accidents etc.
I don't disagree with this - I'm really trying to say that 50 million is high, as even the chinese official sites don't claim that number.
Originally posted by FurorYou're really caught up on this aren't you? Why does this particular aspect niggle at you so much? Yeah, okay, BUT this was military attack, whether or not there was defense. The Holocaust was a systematic and lengthy extermination of the Jewish population of a country. It's a very different thing and shouldn't be looked upon as the same thing.
I am more concerned with what the japanese did the chinese. It is said that Hitler was responsible for the deaths of 6 million jews--the chinese blame the japanese military for directly or indirectly causing the deaths of over 50,000,000 chinese.
Originally posted by willwhittleWhy does it niggle at me?--because the United States new about it, and decided to offer the japanese a deal, and keep it in the dark.
You're really caught up on this aren't you? Why does this particular aspect niggle at you so much? Yeah, okay, BUT this was military attack, whether or not there was defense. The Holocaust was a systematic and lengthy extermination of the Jewish population of a country. It's a very different thing and shouldn't be looked upon as the same thing.
Lookup the massacre of Nanjing. Whether chinese civilians are killed by gunshot wounds or gassing, they are still killed. Even the nazi warmachine stands in awe at japan's "accomplishments".
Originally posted by FurorYour missing the real point: it's a different thing (still genocide obviously but -), it isn't the nazi 'war machine' which we're discussing. it's the murder of their own people, the same applies to the Russians.
Why does it niggle at me?--because the United States new about it, and decided to offer the japanese a deal, and keep it in the dark.
Lookup the massacre of Nanjing. Whether chinese civilians are killed by gunshot wounds or gassing, they are still killed. Even the nazi warmachine stands in awe at japan's "accomplishments".
Originally posted by FurorOkay, Furor, tell me about this "deal"...
Why does it niggle at me?--because the United States new about it, and decided to offer the japanese a deal, and keep it in the dark.
Lookup the massacre of Nanjing. Whether chinese civilians are killed by gunshot wounds or gassing, they are still killed. Even the nazi warmachine stands in awe at japan's "accomplishments".
Originally posted by FurorNo, you tell me.
http://space4peace.blogspot.com/2006/04/surprising-history-of-japaneseus-bio.html
Read the book described in that blog.
Hirohito held a meeting of the Supreme War Direction Council shortly after midnight on August 10th. He told the Council that it was time to surrender. Togo urged that the Council accept Hirohito's suggestion, provided that the postion of Emperor could be respected. Suzuki read aloud the Potsdam Declaration and they discussd it for two hours. Then they voted with Togo and Suzuki supporting Hirohito and Gen. Anami opposing him. A formal acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration was immediately sent to Japanese ambassadors in Switzerland and Sweden and passed on to the Allies: USA, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union.
Truman and his advisors discussed whether or not the proviso about the Emperor neing respected negated its acceptance as an unconditional surrender. They decided it did not as long as the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule Japan was subject to the authority of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers.
Diplomatic exchanges through neutral powers continued for several days and at midday on August 15th a pre-recorded message from Hirohito was played over Japanese radio announcing the acceptance of the provisions of the Join Declaration of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union.
And that, as near as I've ever been able to learn from many sources I consider reliable was the "deal".
Originally posted by DelmerWhat would be the point, as I see you already have your mind made up.
No, you tell me.
Hirohito held a meeting of the Supreme War Direction Council shortly after midnight on August 10th. He told the Council that it was time to surrender. Togo urged that the Council accept Hirohito's suggestion, provided that the postion of Emperor could be respected. Suzuki read aloud the Potsdam Declaration and they discussd it for two hou ...[text shortened]... s near as I've ever been able to learn from many sources I consider reliable was the "deal".
Originally posted by PeachyIf it helps, I read something similar.
Not sure of the details, but his calculations sounded pretty convincing.
And I think he meant that the entire Jewish population at the time was equal to that of Germany, which wasn't for a reason he gave or other...
Gosh.. i need to find it.
It used some world statistics to look at the number of jews in Europe before and after the war.
A lot of these things are pretty convincing at first, like most conspiracy theory stuff, or they wouldn't get any recognition at all. Usually they fall down under closer examination, though.