@wildgrass saidwhat is the “value” of mar a lago?
It seems like you're trying to argue that overinflating the value of your assets to secure more favorable loan terms should not be illegal?
It seems like that would require major changes to current legal and financial systems, for all kinds of lending practices.
@wildgrass saidGive me a case name and date. You've added nothing to the argument.
It seems what trump did amounts to fraud. That's not my assertion. It's now a fact.
It happens. Companies settle these types of claims often. There's so much emotional energy behind this type of fraud not being a crime that I think maybe the trump cult might actually be able to make progress. It's like it's their first ever experience of a criminal being railroaded by an ...[text shortened]... criminal justice reform.
Take trump out of this. Criminals settle the same charges all the time.
You have now asserted that your assertion is a fact. That too is an assertion.
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@techsouth saidA guilty verdict will do that.
Give me a case name and date. You've added nothing to the argument.
You have now asserted that your assertion is a fact. That too is an assertion.
If we are really after it, one could argue that all facts are really just assertions, since nothing is universally proven true except your own existence.
Or we could agree that fraud happened here - because it did - and then move on. These cases settle off court all the time, without the theatrics and moral hand winging. Trump overvalued assets, Think of the poor children.
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@techsouth saidOvervaluing a property to sell it is different from overvaluing a property to secure a loan or to pay taxes. A bank wants to know whether the value of the property is enough to cover the loan, and overvaluing it to get a higher loan is outright fraud. There is a clause at the bottom of the bank loan application which reads something to the effect that by signing the form, you swear that the information you have provided is true and correct to the best of your knowledge. There is a similar clause at the bottom of the tax return form. Giving false information on such forms is a crime. There is simply nothing to debate here.
You have made an assertion. I am not convinced.
What about overvaluing an asset to to sell it at a better price? Is that fraud? If I ask $550,000 for my house and it appraises for $475,000, is that fraud? Why or why not? How is it different? They buyer can make a counter-offer. Or they can walk away. Same as the bank.
Seems like the banks are quite savvy an ...[text shortened]... understand or will choose to blind themselves to reality because they all want to get Trump so bad.
This is not case when you try to sell a property and inflate its value to a prospective buyer -- the prospective buyer is responsible for informing himself what the market value is. Moreover, a buyer is at liberty to pay a higher price than the current market value, if he wishes; that's not a crime either.
@moonbus saidHere we are, having come full circle to the starting point. You can't respond to the debate points I've put forth, so you just restart the debate from the exact place where it started as if no inconvenient points have been raised.
Overvaluing a property to sell it is different from overvaluing a property to secure a loan or to pay taxes. A bank wants to know whether the value of the property is enough to cover the loan, and overvaluing it to get a higher loan is outright fraud. There is a clause at the bottom of the bank loan application which reads something to the effect that by signing the form, you ...[text shortened]... iberty to pay a higher price than the current market value, if he wishes; that's not a crime either.
Please show me an example of a bank loan application. I've applied for loans for houses that I was to purchase. Also, I have a applied for HELOCs. I recall signing no such statements.
I do my own taxes. I have never seen any place where you affirm the value of real estate you own. The only thing I know of that is important is the purchase price (or more precisely the "basis"😉 and the selling price. Any hypothetical value aside from that is irrelevant in any tax return form I've seen. Please show me an example of a tax return form that you believe Trump is in trouble for. All forms can be found online, so it should be easy for you.
@wildgrass said"A guilty verdict will do that". Funny.
A guilty verdict will do that.
If we are really after it, one could argue that all facts are really just assertions, since nothing is universally proven true except your own existence.
Or we could agree that fraud happened here - because it did - and then move on. These cases settle off court all the time, without the theatrics and moral hand winging. Trump overvalued assets, Think of the poor children.
We are in a conversation where what is being questioned is whether or not Trump is being prosecuted for something that others have not (or would not) be prosecuted for. One way to demonstrate that this is NOT the case is to cite other examples of OTHER people who have been prosecuted based on a similar set of facts. So I asked for an example and that was your response.
Do you believe your response demonstrates you are even are able to grasp the nature of the issue at hand? You actually think that Trump being found guilty will be an example of a guilty verdict that can be used to support the premise that Trump is not being singled out? Really? It is only if there are numerous OTHER people being prosecuted for the same thing can it be said that this is not a politically motivated prosecution.
I was not trying to get metaphysical. But most can understand that "This is political. No it's not political. Yes it is. No it isn't" by themselves are just assertions that do not demonstrate the one making the assertion has made any attempt to carefully analyze precisely what is going on.
I believe I've gone further than simple assertions. If I say, "I believe this is political because I know that banks always do their on assessment of property values. Besides, the loan was paid back and there is no victim". That is an argument that "shows some work" so to speak. You have a chance to respond "No the loan was not paid back". Or you could say, "No, our banking industry is vulnerable to overextension because they don't know how to assess the value of property and just take people's word for it." Or you could come up with other ways to challenge the line of thinking I've put forth. I even gave you an idea of the most simple way to respond. I asked for examples of other people who have been prosecuted given roughly the same set of facts. Maybe you believe there are 1000s of cases, but have trouble locating a specific one. But you have not even been able to recognize that this would be the most convincing way to counterargue. If you came back with dozens of cases of prosecutions with roughly the same facts, I'd be forced to say "Maybe I was wrong. This might not be political." Such a list, although technically also a series of assertions, would carry some persuasive weight, and in my mind would amount to something a lot more meaningful than "no it's not political". So far, all you've demonstrated the ability to do is repeat "no it's not political".
I don't even think I could agree that you've even passed the Turing Test in this interaction.
I am curious if you've ever even wrestled with the possibility that you (like all other humans) have some biases.
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@techsouth saidhttps://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf
Here we are, having come full circle to the starting point. You can't respond to the debate points I've put forth, so you just restart the debate from the exact place where it started as if no inconvenient points have been raised.
Please show me an example of a bank loan application. I've applied for loans for houses that I was to purchase. Also, I have a applied fo ...[text shortened]... t you believe Trump is in trouble for. All forms can be found online, so it should be easy for you.
"Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this return and accompanying schedules and statements, and to the best of my knowledge and
belief, they are true, correct, and complete. Declaration of preparer (other than taxpayer) is based on all information of which preparer has any knowledge."
The same will apply to a bank loan application. Just read the fine print, it's all right there. The following happens to be for a credit card application, but the terms and conditions for a loan are similar, and by signing you declare that your information is true and correct and that you are required to inform the bank of any changes:
https://www.thecitybank.com/upload/Amex-Credit-Card-Application-Form_2021.pdf
Scroll down, it's all right there in plain text under Applicant Declaration.
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@techsouth saidhttps://www.justsecurity.org/85605/survey-of-past-new-york-felony-prosecutions-for-falsifying-business-records/
"A guilty verdict will do that". Funny.
We are in a conversation where what is being questioned is whether or not Trump is being prosecuted for something that others have not (or would not) be prosecuted for. One way to demonstrate that this is NOT the case is to cite other examples of OTHER people who have been prosecuted based on a similar set of facts. So I asked ...[text shortened]... if you've ever even wrestled with the possibility that you (like all other humans) have some biases.
https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2023/04/06/new-york-state-has-issued-nearly-9800-felony-charges-of-falsifying-business-records-since-2015/
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@athousandyoung saidShow me one on this list that resembles Trump's case in regards to Mar-a-Lago. Just pick 1 that most resembles Trump's case. If you say "all of them" then fine. Pick 1 that is the best example.
https://www.justsecurity.org/85605/survey-of-past-new-york-felony-prosecutions-for-falsifying-business-records/
https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2023/04/06/new-york-state-has-issued-nearly-9800-felony-charges-of-falsifying-business-records-since-2015/
I started going through the list, and my guess is that you don't understand the question.
@moonbus saidI'm guessing you don't do your own taxes by hand. But that's fine. Turbo tax is fine for most people. Nevertheless, most people understand the difference between "income tax" and "property tax". I find it odd that you think you've answered the question by pointing to the signature line on an income tax form. In order for the signature on the income tax form to apply to "tax value" of property, there would need to be some statement on your income tax form where you specify the current value of your property.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040.pdf
"Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this return and accompanying schedules and statements, and to the best of my knowledge and
belief, they are true, correct, and complete. Declaration of preparer (other than taxpayer) is based on all information of which preparer has any knowledge."
The same will appl ...[text shortened]... cation-Form_2021.pdf
Scroll down, it's all right there in plain text under Applicant Declaration.
As I said before, the "tax value" of my house is significantly lower than current market value, but it is not a number I decided myself.
Show me the line on the tax form that requires that you estimate the value of your real estate which feeds into the data used by your county to assess property taxes. It is my understanding that the relevant numbers are "cost or other basis" and "proceeds from sale".
For example, here is form 8949 which is used by someone selling their home. It has boxes for "proceeds" and "cost or other basis", but nothing about "estimated current value".
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8949.pdf
@techsouth saidShow me where you have the slightest understanding of the meaning of the word “perjury “. Two too many syllables for you?
I'm guessing you don't do your own taxes by hand. But that's fine. Turbo tax is fine for most people. Nevertheless, most people understand the difference between "income tax" and "property tax". I find it odd that you think you've answered the question by pointing to the signature line on an income tax form. In order for the signature on the income tax form to apply to ...[text shortened]... er basis", but nothing about "estimated current value".
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8949.pdf
@moonbus saidHoly Cow! This post got 2 likes already!!??
Show me where you have the slightest understanding of the meaning of the word “perjury “. Two too many syllables for you?
I'm debating with children. It's like no one can follow a line of thought.
I think I've put forth a very clear challenge that has not been answered in any relevant way.
But you managed to write a good insult instead. So you're having a good day I presume.
You've won this debate by your rule (childish insults). I feel like I've won by my rules (actual argument points).
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@techsouth saidI don't know what you consider a "similar set of facts".
Show me one on this list that resembles Trump's case in regards to Mar-a-Lago. Just pick 1 that most resembles Trump's case. If you say "all of them" then fine. Pick 1 that is the best example.
I started going through the list, and my guess is that you don't understand the question.
This is like trying to demonstrate a "reputable definition" of capitalism to Wajoma. He won't accept any definition from any source as "reputable" even if it's from Ayn Rand or the Libertarianism website.
Likewise I'm sure you won't accept any facts as "similar" to Trump's case.
Would an example of the following be a "similar set of facts" in your judgement techsouth?
https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/criminal-consequences-for-real-estate-fraud.html
When Does a Buyer Commit Real Estate Fraud?
It is common for home buyers to take out a loan to finance the purchase of real property. This loan is known as a mortgage loan. The loan application is analyzed by a mortgage lender, which can be a bank or credit union. When a buyer applies for a loan, the buyer may make any number of false representations on the loan application in order to improve their chances of getting a loan. These include:
Attempting to report a credit score that is higher than the buyer’s real credit score;
Providing an income figure that is higher than the buyer’s actual income;
Falsely representing the amount of debt or the kinds of debts the borrower owes to creditors creditors; and
Giving the lender false paycheck stubs or statements, or false tax statements.