Originally posted by no1marauderDoes the American south have the right to secede to reverse the invasion and occupation of 1861-1865?
Robbers calling their ill-gotten gains their property doesn't make it so.
No agreement can nullify the right of a free people to resist foreign occupation and domination.
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Originally posted by sh76The South doesn't have "rights".
Does the American south have the right to secede to reverse the invasion and occupation of 1861-1865?
Go for it. But if States who joined the US had wanted to retain the power to secede they probably shouldn't have ratified the "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union". Since their nation never had a legitimate existence, it hardly can complain about "foreign occupation".
There is no doubt, however, that Ireland was and is a separate nation state than the inhabitants of the island to its East. That part of Ireland was by the use of methods we now refer to as "ethnic cleansing" populated by Royalists hardly makes that enclave a legitimate part of the UK as majorities on both islands, who favor the unification of Ireland and have done so for decades, recognize.
Originally posted by wolfgang59wolfgang: Its called democracy
There are about a 1,000 UK troops in Northern Ireland which is part of the UK (the clue is in the name: "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"😉
According to the Good Friday Agreement (endorsed by UK, ROI and Northern Ireland political groups - including Sinn Fein) Northern Ireland will leave the UK when/if a majority of the people want to. (Its called democracy)
You are living in the past if you think otherwise.
Since majorities on both islands support Irish unification, if you really believed in democracy you'd support the UK getting off Irish soil.
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Originally posted by no1marauderMajorities of people in both Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland support Irish reunification, but at the moment a small majority of people in Northern Island itself (these being, after all, the people really concerned with the matter) are in favour of continued union with Britain. Surely the wishes of the inhabitants of the region concerned ought to be given precedence in this matter.
Since majorities on both islands support Irish unification, if you really believed in democracy you'd support the UK getting off Irish soil.
Originally posted by TeinosukeWhy exactly? The enclave cited was created by invasion, occupation, ethnic cleansing and hundreds of years of repression. What makes a small group favored by its status override the wishes of majorities in both nations to right this historical wrong?
Majorities of people in both Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland support Irish reunification, but at the moment a small majority of people in Northern Island itself (these being, after all, the people really concerned with the matter) are in favour of continued union with Britain. Surely the wishes of the inhabitants of the region concerned ought to be given precedence in this matter.
Originally posted by no1marauderthat all the people who were around when N. Ireland was conquered are now long dead.
Why exactly? The enclave cited was created by invasion, occupation, ethnic cleansing and hundreds of years of repression. What makes a small group favored by its status override the wishes of majorities in both nations to right this historical wrong?
why should Irish have the right to possess a contiguous island? does any other race assume that right?
Originally posted by zeeblebotUlster was spilt from the rest of Ireland only in 1922 and Irish patriots have continually resisted this arbitrary division every since often by force of arms. It's hardly some ancient history.
that all the people who were around when N. Ireland was conquered are now long dead.
why should Irish have the right to possess a contiguous island? does any other race assume that right?
No other island has the same history, but colonial attempts to carve out small sections of conquered territory and create separate enclaves have been disfavored. Hong Kong was returned to China even though the majority of its residents wished not to be.
Originally posted by TeinosukeClean out the Celts, and in a few generations claim moral superiority based on being native Anglo-Irish.
Majorities of people in both Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland support Irish reunification, but at the moment a small majority of people in Northern Island itself (these being, after all, the people really concerned with the matter) are in favour of continued union with Britain. Surely the wishes of the inhabitants of the region concerned ought to be given precedence in this matter.
No different than any number of other cases around the globe...
The sins of the father do not pass on to the sons, but the profits do!
If we ethnically cleanse the Anglos out of Ireland, then in a few generations the Celts will be the natives of that region again and will have the moral high ground!
Murder leads to the "rightful acquisition" of land! That's how it works in reality, even though it's obviously fallacious.
Originally posted by zeeblebotThe Irish are not a race. They have the right to the island because they are indigenous.
that all the people who were around when N. Ireland was conquered are now long dead.
why should Irish have the right to possess a contiguous island? does any other race assume that right?
Originally posted by no1marauderThe southern colonies existed before the ratification of the Constitution and your earlier assertion that "no agreement can nullify..." would seem to apply to them to, whether they ratified the Constitution or not.
The South doesn't have "rights".
Go for it. But if States who joined the US had wanted to retain the power to secede they probably shouldn't have ratified the "Articles of Confederation and [b]Perpetual Union". Since their nation never had a legitimate existence, it hardly can complain about "foreign occupation".
There ...[text shortened]... islands, who favor the unification of Ireland and have done so for decades, recognize.[/b]
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Originally posted by sh76Maybe you should quote the whole statement which clearly does not apply to the South which was not "foreign occupied or dominated". Nor would "free people" reasonably refer to those who's only rationale for rebellion is to continue to enslave others.
The southern colonies existed before the ratification of the Constitution and your earlier assertion that "no agreement can nullify..." would seem to apply to them to, whether they ratified the Constitution or not.
Originally posted by no1marauderSome facts for you.
Ulster was spilt from the rest of Ireland only in 1922 and Irish patriots have continually resisted this arbitrary division every since often by force of arms. It's hardly some ancient history.
No other island has the same history, but colonial attempts to carve out small sections of conquered territory and create separate enclaves have ...[text shortened]... ed. Hong Kong was returned to China even though the majority of its residents wished not to be.
Northern Ireland (which you erroneously call Ulster) was not split from Ireland.
The Republic of Ireland split from the United Kingdom.
(I agree this was - in retrospect - not a good decision.)
It would be ridiculous now to force a decision on the people of Northern Ireland regardless of what Scots, Welsh or English want.
Hong Kong was returned to China because the lease was up. The UK tried to negotiate a new lease but China was having none of it. A totally different scenario to Ireland.
Originally posted by wolfgang59You're wrong about virtually every thing you claim in this post; are all people educated in the UK so ignorant?
Some facts for you.
Northern Ireland (which you erroneously call Ulster) was not split from Ireland.
The Republic of Ireland split from the United Kingdom.
(I agree this was - in retrospect - not a good decision.)
It would be ridiculous now to force a decision on the people of Northern Ireland regardless of what Scots, Welsh or English want.
Hong ...[text shortened]... negotiate a new lease but China was having none of it. A totally different scenario to Ireland.