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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    31 Oct '17 20:41
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/31/finland-universal-basic-income

    "A basic income for everyone? Yes, Finland shows it really can work."

    "A man gets money for free. Each month, almost €560 (£500) is dropped into
    his bank account, with no strings attached. The cash is his to use as he wants.
    Who is his benefactor? The Helsinki government."

    "All those free euros have driven him to work harder than ever.
    None of this would have been possible before he received UBI. Until this year,
    Järvinen was on dole money; the Finnish equivalent of the job centre was always
    on his case about job applications and training. Ideas flow out of Järvinen
    as easily as water from a tap, yet he could exercise none of his initiative
    for fear of arousing bureaucratic scrutiny."

    "So what accounted for his change? Certainly not the UBI money. In Finland,
    €560 is less than a fifth of average private-sector income. “You have to
    be a magician to survive on such money,” Järvinen says. Over and over,
    he baldly describes himself as “poor”.

    His liberation came in the lack of conditions attached to the money. If
    they so wish, Finns on UBI can bank the cash and do nothing else.
    But, in Järvinen’s case at least, the sum has removed the fear of utter
    destitution, freeing him to do work he finds meaningful."
  2. Zugzwang
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    31 Oct '17 20:44
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/23/universal-basic-income-ubi-welfare-state

    "Love the idea of a universal basic income? Be careful what you wish for.
    Yes, UBI could be an important part of a radical agenda. But beware: its proponents
    include neoliberals hostile to the very idea of the welfare state."

    "What’s needed is not the arbitrary adoption of UBI, but an entirely different conversation about
    what a welfare state is for. As David Lammy MP said, after the Grenfell Tower disaster:
    “This is about whether the welfare state is just about schools and hospitals or whether it
    is about a safety net.” The conversation, in light of UBI, could go even further: it’s possible
    for the welfare state not just to act as a safety net, but as a tool for all of us to do less work and
    spend more time with our loved ones, pursuing personal interests or engaging in our communities.
    UBI has this revolutionary potential – but not if it is simply parachuted into a political
    economy that has been pursuing punitive welfare policies for the last 30 years."
  3. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    31 Oct '17 23:03
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/23/universal-basic-income-ubi-welfare-state

    "Love the idea of a universal basic income? Be careful what you wish for.
    Yes, UBI could be an important part of a radical agenda. But beware: its proponents
    include neoliberals hostile to the very idea of the welfare state."

    "What’s needed is not the a ...[text shortened]... to a political
    economy that has been pursuing punitive welfare policies for the last 30 years."
    So if the key is doing 1/5 of basic work pay, then using say $10/hr in the US as some measure of minimum to get by then we would pay them 2 bucks an hour for an equivalent work week of 40 hours or 80 dollars a week times 4.3333 which works out to about $340 per week. Not even as much as in Finland.
  4. Zugzwang
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    31 Oct '17 23:30
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    So if the key is doing 1/5 of basic work pay, then using say $10/hr in the US as some measure of minimum to get by then we would pay them 2 bucks an hour for an equivalent work week of 40 hours or 80 dollars a week times 4.3333 which works out to about $340 per week. Not even as much as in Finland.
    I would rather have the state support 'starving' artists, musicians, writers, etc. than more bureaucrats.
  5. Subscriberkmax87
    Land of Free
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    31 Oct '17 23:591 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I would rather have the state support 'starving' artists, musicians, writers, etc. than more bureaucrats.
    Has anyone done the numbers on what it costs government to provide a bureaucracy to ensure compliance with rules and conditions attached to every welfare dollar they dole out, and how much they would save if they just gave out a ubi without any strings attached?
  6. Joined
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    01 Nov '17 00:01
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/31/finland-universal-basic-income

    "A basic income for everyone? Yes, Finland shows it really can work."

    "A man gets money for free. Each month, almost €560 (£500) is dropped into
    his bank account, with no strings attached. The cash is his to use as he wants.
    Who is his benefactor? The Helsinki go ...[text shortened]... he sum has removed the fear of utter
    destitution, freeing him to do work he finds meaningful."
    Wait....wut?

    Is it like the US? I just cross the border and I'm a citizen getting money?
  7. Subscriberkmax87
    Land of Free
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    01 Nov '17 00:14
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Wait....wut?

    Is it like the US? I just cross the border and I'm a citizen getting money?
    Apparently in your fantasy the poor and dispossessed, y'know the huddled masses and such, should just take a number while you enjoy the spoils of a system that is systematically bankrupting and destroying the economy and ecology of the world around it.
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    The Axe man
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    01 Nov '17 02:201 edit
    We get a basic wage here (Aust.)but I'd prefer a piece of land. Such a big country with few people ... why not?
    The powers that be is why not. They dont want you going out into the bush and growing your own food. They want you to spend every cent of that small income on food from their shops, electricity from their dirty coalmine, luxury goods with around 80% tax.etc.

    One day ...
  9. Behind the scenes
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    01 Nov '17 02:28
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/31/finland-universal-basic-income

    "A basic income for everyone? Yes, Finland shows it really can work."

    "A man gets money for free. Each month, almost €560 (£500) is dropped into
    his bank account, with no strings attached. The cash is his to use as he wants.
    Who is his benefactor? The Helsinki go ...[text shortened]... he sum has removed the fear of utter
    destitution, freeing him to do work he finds meaningful."
    This is the same country that has such high achieving students, despite assigning little or no homework. Maybe the rest of the world should take notice.
  10. Subscriberkmax87
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    01 Nov '17 03:54
    Originally posted by @mchill
    This is the same country that has such high achieving students, despite assigning little or no homework. Maybe the rest of the world should take notice.
    They've possibly come to the unfashionable conclusion that people might be more productive if you treated them humanely.

    Nah, couldn't possibly be that simple.
  11. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    01 Nov '17 04:37
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Has anyone done the numbers on what it costs government to provide a bureaucracy to ensure compliance with rules and conditions attached to every welfare dollar they dole out, and how much they would save if they just gave out a ubi without any strings attached?
    That’s what the Finnish pilot-scheme is trying to work out.

    I knew it had started, I didn’t know the evaluation had already taken place. Has it?

    I’ll have to look into it. The theory is that it’s actually cheaper than the whole system we have in place now. The outcome could be a game changer!
  12. Subscriberkmax87
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    01 Nov '17 04:491 edit
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    That’s what the Finnish pilot-scheme is trying to work out.

    I knew it had started, I didn’t know the evaluation had already taken place. Has it?

    I’ll have to look into it. The theory is that it’s actually cheaper than the whole system we have in place now. The outcome could be a game changer!
    I like the rationale of the program, in that you incentivise people to do more because it's in their own interest to do so as they will directly benefit. I'm sure there will be those that will attempt to abuse this system, in the same way that those with enormous wealth try and hide their money from the tax office, but on the whole, making people feel valued by making them responsible for their actions and not penalizing them for bad luck or poor decisions has got to be a more enlightened way to run a society.
  13. Germany
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    01 Nov '17 08:30
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    I like the rationale of the program, in that you incentivise people to do more because it's in their own interest to do so as they will directly benefit. I'm sure there will be those that will attempt to abuse this system, in the same way that those with enormous wealth try and hide their money from the tax office, but on the whole, making people feel valued ...[text shortened]... izing them for bad luck or poor decisions has got to be a more enlightened way to run a society.
    In what ways do you imagine the system might be abused? That's the whole point of it: since you get it unconditionally, it can't be abused, and you don't need an army of bureaucrats to administer it.
  14. SubscriberWajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
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    01 Nov '17 10:39
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/31/finland-universal-basic-income

    "A basic income for everyone? Yes, Finland shows it really can work."

    "A man gets money for free. Each month, almost €560 (£500) is dropped into
    his bank account, with no strings attached. The cash is his to use as he wants.
    Who is his benefactor? The Helsinki go ...[text shortened]... he sum has removed the fear of utter
    destitution, freeing him to do work he finds meaningful."
    Järvinen likes free money. He dosen't know what it measures.

    Järvinen dosen't want to know where the free money came from because that's hard on ones conscience.

    Järvinen wants free money.

    End of story.
  15. Subscriberkmax87
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    01 Nov '17 10:47
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    In what ways do you imagine the system might be abused? That's the whole point of it: since you get it unconditionally, it can't be abused, and you don't need an army of bureaucrats to administer it.
    Silly me, I'm still thinking like someone trapped inside a neo-con frame where welfare is always cast as a great priveledge and not a right. As a consequence of that way of thinking, its almost a reflex to justify any payment government gives out and be on the defensive lest anyone should say that the person receiving this benefit will become a lzy good for nothing sponge.
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