Cheerful news from the Netherlands. Some numbers for ye to crunch:
83.5% of the population vaccinated.
75% of hospitalisations are unvaccinated people.
80% of IC admittance are unvaccinated.
The number of IC beds being used for corona is increasly fast. Which as people should know is a problem: the average person on IC is there for 3 to 4 days. Corona patients are there for 3 weeks. This clogs up the system.
So, roughly 15% of the population are weighing heavily on healthcare resources.
The same is echoed in most other countries.
Add to this the fact that most transmissions come from unvaccinated people, this makes the unvaccinated less popular than small pox at the moment.
There’s an interesting debate going on in the workplace: privacy laws vs Health & Safety laws.
Basically, the employer has the reponsibilty of enforcing a safe work environment. But the employer is not allowed to ask any medical details, because it’s none of his business.
This leads to nobody knowing who’s vaccinated or not and no obligation to tell.
So, some people don’t want to come to work, incase they have to work with unvaccinated people.
The problem being that the unvaccinated could transmit the disease to them even though they themselves are vaccinated.
For average, healthy people this isn’t a problem. But for the elderly and folk with underlying health problems it is. And most people know people who are old or quite sick.
A work around could be using restaurants or congress centres to hold meetings. They are obligated to check the corona application. And so guarantee, to a certain extent, that people are either vaccinated, recovered or recently tested negative.
But there’s a few problems in this solution:
The first being the costs of using external meeting places. But more importantly, by choosing this option, the employer is basically testing health, albeit by proxy.
So, unvaccinated could, and sometimes do, refuse to work in such circumstances.
Another work around is hybrid meetings. So, people who want to work “live” can and people who don’t can join meetings remotely using MS Teams and what-not.
This has proven effective in small scale meetings, or meetings where most people are primarily recieving information.
Complicated subjects, emotional and creative subjects are a problem when using digital solutions.
As for chairing hybrid meetings with more than 10 people, it’s like chairing two meetings at the same time.
Think of lag, lack of non-verbal communication, different ways of interrupting, being assisted, etc.
Now, in places like the US and France, certain groups of the workforce have been obligated to be vaccinated. I don’t know about the US, but France must have passed a law to get thst through (GDPR, the EU privacy regulation, gives a country an option to pass laws as one of the grounds for the use of special personal information).
Italy, seemingly, has passed a law that the complete workforce has to be vaccinated (that is very extreme and I’m quite interested how they argued proportionality and subsidiarity on that one). Not seen it myself though.
Anyhoo. As you can see, this is quite a serious piece on the practical, ethical and philosophical problems society is encountering because of a group of people not wanting to get vaccinated.
And I am genuinly interested in how others see this. Solutions for the workforce. Etc.
I am not interested in conspiracy theories in this thread. Or shouting matches. If you diagree with the stated facts just perceive them as the axioma for the debate.
I want to have hear thoughts on the dilemma at hand.
Thanks.
@shavixmir said1. The average person on IC is there for 3 to 4 days. Corona patients are there for 3 weeks. This clogs up the system. So, roughly 15% of the population are weighing heavily on healthcare resources. The same is echoed in most other countries.
Cheerful news from the Netherlands. Some numbers for ye to crunch:
83.5% of the population vaccinated.
75% of hospitalisations are unvaccinated people.
80% of IC admittance are unvaccinated.
The number of IC beds being used for corona is increasly fast. Which as people should know is a problem: the average person on IC is there for 3 to 4 days. Corona patients are t ...[text shortened]... hem as the axioma for the debate.
I want to have hear thoughts on the dilemma at hand.
Thanks.
2. There’s an interesting debate going on in the workplace: privacy laws vs Health & Safety laws.
The solution seems pretty clear: Since item #1 above has been verified by healthcare professionals and facilities in many countries, changing #2 privacy and/or health and safety laws to include mandatory vaccines (subject to availability) would radically improve the number of available IC beds, and provide a safer, healthier country for it's citizens to work and live out their lives. This isn't difficult to understand. Getting the anti vax crowd (especially those trying to politicize this pandemic) to see the logic of this however, is little different than trying to teach basic arithmetic to a pile of wood shavings.
@shavixmir
"most transmissions come from unvaccinated people"
Not so sure. The vaccine helps to stay alive if infected. However, it is known that the vaccine is not so efficient against infections. Thus, a vaccinated person may feel slightly unwell and walk around, while infected. The problem is that in many countries, the vaccine passport allows visiting crowded places without even wearing a mask. At the same time, a document proving that one has gotten a negative test result recently is not considered as proof that one can freely walk around. This is the case, for example, in Estonia right now. Thus, it might not be an exaggeration if some authors write that vaccinated people are dangerous to the unvaccinated and not the other way around.
Moreover, a recent report of the SAGE scientists presented to the government of the UK suggests staying at home, regarding vaccination and masks as insufficient measures to handle the epidemic.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-scientists-urge-boris-johnson-25276359
@mchill
"Getting the anti vax crowd (especially those trying to politicize this pandemic) to see the logic of this however, is little different than trying to teach basic arithmetic to a pile of wood shavings."
This is propagandistic and biased. You seem to be unable to discern:
1) against MANDATORY vaccination;
2) against THIS or THAT vaccine (for example, against Pfizer's vaccine that is essentially experimental);
3) sceptical concerning this or that vaccine (in contrast to being against that vaccine);
4) the effectiveness of the vaccine in contrast to its harmful side effects.
Based on your conceptual confusion above, your arguments are not scientific at all.
@shavixmir saidIts a pity that many do not even accept the numbers anymore and question the basic axiom that the unvaccinated spread the virus more readily than the vaccinated.
Cheerful news from the Netherlands. Some numbers for ye to crunch:
83.5% of the population vaccinated.
75% of hospitalisations are unvaccinated people.
80% of IC admittance are unvaccinated.
I am not interested in conspiracy theories in this thread. Or shouting matches. If you diagree with the stated facts just perceive them as the axioma for the debate.
I want to have hear thoughts on the dilemma at hand.
Thanks.
As much as I think they are crazy, some close friends of mine see the vaccine as nothing more than a power grab by the State to exert even more control over the folk than it already does, and are resisting any mandate to be vaccinated. These are people in healthcare and education and a couple of them have already had the rug of employment pulled from under them because they have not had any shots by the cut-off date and are not planning to have any by any future date. Other friends have disgruntedly taken the jab because they have a mortgage and even though they have been working from home during the lockdown period, they are now required to report on site for at least 50% of their rostered on shifts. The nature of their work means that they cannot do all of it online.
And these are otherwise normal, decent hard-working citizens who pay their taxes and recycle! Unfortunately the rabbit holes of experts purporting to expose the real truth of the dangers to our bodies these vaccines represent are numerous and deep. And most of the experts on the vaccine hesitant side seem highly credentialed and appear to have nothing to gain (in fact they trumpet that they have everything to lose) by going against the mainstream of public health opinion.
In Australia it seems that the unvaccinated will only miss out in the short term(till the population is 90% double vaxxed), before returning back to normal, and as far as work goes its not absolutely clear what will happen as yet. What is definite is that if you work in health, education and other government run social services like police and welfare agencies, vaccines are mandated. For the rest it seems it will be up to the individual business/places of employment to decide. Though across the board, social distancing and masks will be the new normal for everyone in public for the foreseeable future.
My family went to the movies today for example and we had to show our vaccination status to get in. By the 1st of December that should all disappear. The vaccinated will have only had a month and a bit of a head start over the unvaxxed, in terms of getting back to normal, which for some seems to not make sense, like why would anyone bother to get a jab, if society was going to open up anyway, except if everyone felt that way, we would never reach the 90% double vaccinated mark and we would be locked down forever....
Some feel that eventually the vaccination requirements for education and other government services will eventually fall away, but I can't see it happening in health care. And for the most part nurses are pragmatic enough to just get the jabs and get on with it. They've been getting flu shots forever and this is just another jab to mitigate against time off work.
So while its a pain, we have to QR code to get in anywhere, and the same app carries a copy of your vaccination status. The onus of refusal to allow entry is up to the business, because they risk the biggest fines allowing the unvaxxed onto their premises. At the local hairdressers, I saw that happen the other day, because the owner was not interested in a shaggy dog story from a customer who didn't have the app or the paper work. Sorry, but you can come back when you can show me your vaxxed status, until then, I can't serve you.
In terms of what it all means, I think most people just adapt, like they did before with rationing during the two world wars and being locked out of public spaces and having to mask up as they did during the Spanish Flu and all anyone does is simply endure in the hope that one day they will signal the all-clear and life will slowly get back to some sense of normal.
@eintaluj saidIn another thread I posted the results from the Dutch Track & Trace system, which also match with the those in Israel: most transmissions (by far) are from unvaccinated people in crowded areas to others. More so to unvaccinated people, but vaccinated people get infected as well.
@shavixmir
"most transmissions come from unvaccinated people"
Not so sure. The vaccine helps to stay alive if infected. However, it is known that the vaccine is not so efficient against infections. Thus, a vaccinated person may feel slightly unwell and walk around, while infected. The problem is that in many countries, the vaccine passport allows visiting crowded place ...[text shortened]... epidemic.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-scientists-urge-boris-johnson-25276359
Since the axiom is this as a truth, and I don’t want the thread to be clogged down in pointless nitpicking over facts, please respect the axiom in this thread.
Thank you.
@shavixmir saidAs you do not respect the axioms of rational discussion from the very beginning and ignore the critical remarks, I refuse to discuss with you.
In another thread I posted the results from the Dutch Track & Trace system, which also match with the those in Israel: most transmissions (by far) are from unvaccinated people in crowded areas to others. More so to unvaccinated people, but vaccinated people get infected as well.
Since the axiom is this as a truth, and I don’t want the thread to be clogged down in pointless nitpicking over facts, please respect the axiom in this thread.
Thank you.
@kmax87 saidThe numbers are corrupted in the USA. The CDC does not count all infections of the vaccinated, but they count all infections of the unvaccinated. It is a pity you do not accept that fact.
Its a pity that many do not even accept the numbers anymore and question the basic axiom that the unvaccinated spread the virus more readily than the vaccinated.
As much as I think they are crazy, some close friends of mine see the vaccine as nothing more than a power grab by the State to exert even more control over the folk than it already does, and are resisting any man ...[text shortened]... e that one day they will signal the all-clear and life will slowly get back to some sense of normal.
I don't know about the Netherlands. I don't live there.
@shavixmir said🚨🚧Moronity of liberals alert!🚧🚨
Cheerful news from the Netherlands. Some numbers for ye to crunch:
83.5% of the population vaccinated.
75% of hospitalisations are unvaccinated people.
80% of IC admittance are unvaccinated.
The number of IC beds being used for corona is increasly fast. Which as people should know is a problem: the average person on IC is there for 3 to 4 days. Corona patients are t ...[text shortened]... hem as the axioma for the debate.
I want to have hear thoughts on the dilemma at hand.
Thanks.
@shavixmir saidIf you cannot have both freedom and socialized medicine, then freedom is more important. Socialized medicine is for the serfs in this case.
Cheerful news from the Netherlands. Some numbers for ye to crunch:
83.5% of the population vaccinated.
75% of hospitalisations are unvaccinated people.
80% of IC admittance are unvaccinated.
The number of IC beds being used for corona is increasly fast. Which as people should know is a problem: the average person on IC is there for 3 to 4 days. Corona patients are t ...[text shortened]... hem as the axioma for the debate.
I want to have hear thoughts on the dilemma at hand.
Thanks.
