19 Feb 09
2 edits
Forgive many ordinary Indonesians if they are a little less than ecstatic about this news. The US's ties with Indonesia were - surprise, surprise - at their strongest during the abominable 33 year reign of Soeharto. Before that not so good (when Indonesia charted its own course in the world, had its somewhat indigenous 'guided democracy', and was a member of the Non-Aligned Movement), and post-Soeharto not so good as democracy took root and has started to blossom. There has been a slight upturn under Bush but it has been little more than arms deals and bullying Indonesia over GWOT stuff.
"US pledges stronger Jakarta ties"? What will it mean this time? Journalists, academics, students, minority activists disappearing in the dead of night again? Newspaper editors toeing the line, pursuit of the infamous "investor friendly" environment,... as is so often the way under the grotty grey clouds of Pax America Veritatem?
Link to BBC News story which, bizarrely, manages to discuss US-Indonesia ties without even once mentioning the stinking elephant in the historical drawing room:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/7896126.stm
19 Feb 09
Originally posted by FMFwell, perhaps since the Elephant is no longer in the White House and someone who actually spent part of his life there is, change may have come to the whole thing.
Forgive many ordinary Indonesians if they are a little less than ecstatic about this news. The US's ties with Indonesia were - surprise, surprise - at their strongest during the abominable 33 year reign of Soeharto. Before that not so good (when Indonesia charted its own course in the world, had its somewhat indigenous 'guided democracy', and was a member ...[text shortened]... lephant in the historical drawing room:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/7896126.stm
but, just in case, if you smell peanuts on the new ambassador's breath, run.
19 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by ScriabinLOL. Will do.
just in case, if you smell peanuts on the new ambassador's breath, run.
Economic disaster. Unrest. Generals step in again. Repression. US pledges even stronger Jakarta ties.
There is genuine euphoria here about President Obama but it is apparently rooted in the same compost that gives life to national fascinations for pregnant soap stars, Soeharto's son getting 4 months in gaol for murdering two high court judges, and the occasional gusset shot in a gossip magazine.
19 Feb 09
Originally posted by FMFMaybe assisting them again in the event of another Tsunami?
Forgive many ordinary Indonesians if they are a little less than ecstatic about this news. The US's ties with Indonesia were - surprise, surprise - at their strongest during the abominable 33 year reign of Soeharto. Before that not so good (when Indonesia charted its own course in the world, had its somewhat indigenous 'guided democracy', and was a member ...[text shortened]... lephant in the historical drawing room:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/7896126.stm
19 Feb 09
Originally posted by dystoniacYes. I am failing to detect a lot of humility in your charity! He he. Only joking. The USA pledged $857,053,948, actually handed over $337,623,901 (that is 39% of the figure promised and the figure still talked about nowadays, interestingly enough). Almost all of it was tied aid which meant it was spent on items designated by the donor (meaning that the things purchased were between 5 and 10 times more expensive than they needed to be, and the bulk of the money actually ended up in U.S. bank accounts) and the food aid was sourced in the U.S.A. whereas almost all other developed countries source their aid food from developing countries or indeed from Indonesia itself, making the tsunami a nice little earner for some American farmers. The amount lost to corruption, to which countries like the US generally turn a blind eye to because it suits them, it sorts out who is 'on the team' and who is not, in all manner of subsequent escapades, came out of the $337,623,901. So that leaves about $270 million from the largest economy and 3rd largest country in the world. Germany handed over a similar amount. Even Oxfam GB, a relatively small to medium sized NGO, handed over about $55 million, none of it tied, very little of it spirited away, and hardly a penny of it ending up back in Britain. Yes. You're probably right. Perhaps your largesse made up in some little way for helping to install and backing the kleptomaniac and mass murderer Soeharto for 33 years.
Maybe assisting them again in the event of another Tsunami?
19 Feb 09
Originally posted by FMFWhat would you like to see happen for Indonesia?
LOL. Will do.
Economic disaster. Unrest. Generals step in again. Repression. US pledges even stronger Jakarta ties.
There is genuine euphoria here about President Obama but it is apparently rooted in the same compost that gives life to national fascinations for pregnant soap stars, Soeharto's son getting 4 months in gaol for murdering two high court judges, and the occasional gusset shot in a gossip magazine.
19 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFLook debating wether or not your country needs more ties with the US is one thing, but to sit and talk about the humility in US donations is absurd. The government may not have met your expectations, but look at what American private companies like Coca Cola 10 million, Microsoft 3.5million , Pfizer 10 million, to name only a couple. Also private organizations such a variety of Jewish groups with a total of about 8 million, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints a mear 30 million dollars in money and goods such as medicine, or even Johnson and Johnson. Hell at every convienence store across the Nation there were donation jars for the Tsunami victims and I personally donated a couple of hundred, I know its not much to your standards but it was what I could afford, so get the hell off your HIGH HORSE WHY DON'T YA. What has happened across the world when people who get charity out of hard working peoples pockets and say IT'S NOT ENOUGH.
Yes. I am failing to detect a lot of humility in your charity! He he. Only joking. The USA pledged $857,053,948, actually handed over $337,623,901 (that is 39% of the figure promised and the figure [b]still talked about nowadays, interestingly enough). Almost all of it was tied aid which meant it was spent on items designated by the donor (meaning that the t for helping to install and backing the kleptomaniac and mass murderer Soeharto for 33 years.[/b]
Let me ask you and tell the truth how much did you personally send for the American Katrina victims?
19 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by torch71to sit and talk about the humility in US donations is absurd.
look at what American private companies like Coca Cola 10 million, Microsoft 3.5million , Pfizer 10 million, to name only a couple. Also private organizations such a variety of Jewish groups with a total of about 8 million, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints a mear 30 million dollars...
I was reponding to dystoniac who seemed to think that a few dollars shelled out after the Tsunami could in some way be mentioned in reponse to a complaint about his country backing a butchering dictator for 3 decades. Some humility and penance on your part would not go amiss. No. It certainly wouldn't.
Only a small proportion of the monies you mentioned arrived, if at all. Pledges were made. Publicity enjoyed. Credit humbly taken. But most of the money is never sent. It's pretty bog standard. Remember Afghanistan? The $45 billion Pledge-fest... 2 years later they worked out that $45 million had actually been sent. In Aceh Coca Cola got egg on their face when they used manpower, transport and fuel to get soda pop to locations that hadn't received any food for 2 weeks. Pfizer's "10 million", from what I've heard, was mostly spent on persuading local health department officials in Aceh and North Sumatera to offer contracts to Pfizer once the system was re-erected. Word is, this is what happened. Your $200 probably never left the states. To be quite honest, if I've hurt your feelings, all I can say is ah diddums. I myself didn't donate a single penny to the Tsunami appeal. But I did do about 800 hours of unpaid work over a period of about 2.5 years. Katerina was of no interest to me, except as yet more proof that your country should not be exporting its economic system or its brand of democracy to the rest of the world at gunpoint and dollarpoint. I donated nothing. If you don't want to donate money to Indonesia, then don't. Your post smacks of being on a higher horse than the one I'm on.
20 Feb 09
Originally posted by lordhighgusYes. Most visibly on the TV where their production values are splattered all over many of the top soap operas. But there are more and more Indians making their way on the business scene here, especiallly in the big cities. I'm not aware of significant investment in things like infrastructure. That kind of money tends to come from Japan, China, South Korea. As for Indonesians doing business in India, I'm afraid I don't really know.
What about India? Any history of ties with them? You both have rather large markets for each others businesses.
20 Feb 09
Originally posted by FMFForgive many ordinary Americans if they are a little less than ecstatic about this news.
Forgive many ordinary Indonesians if they are a little less than ecstatic about this news. The US's ties with Indonesia were - surprise, surprise - at their strongest during the abominable 33 year reign of Soeharto. Before that not so good (when Indonesia charted its own course in the world, had its somewhat indigenous 'guided democracy', and was a member ...[text shortened]... lephant in the historical drawing room:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/7896126.stm
The US's ties with Indonesia were - surprise, surprise - at their strongest during the abominable 33 year reign of Soeharto. Before that not so good (when Indonesia charted its own course in the world, had its somewhat indigenous 'guided democracy', and was a member of the Non-Aligned Movement- A group of nations which - ironically - ALIGNED together to form the Non-Aligned Movement.),
22 Feb 09
Originally posted by FMFWhere is this coming from? What if they didn't give the $337,623,000? Would that have been better? Why didn't you refuse the gift? Have you heard the old saw, "never look a gift horse in the mouth?" What does Germany owe you? Why should any other country give you money?
Yes. I am failing to detect a lot of humility in your charity! He he. Only joking. The USA pledged $857,053,948, actually handed over $337,623,901 (that is 39% of the figure promised and the figure [b]still talked about nowadays, interestingly enough).[/b]
As comparison: Sean owns a cafe and sees a starving guy in the street. He offers the guy money to feed himself but requests the fellow buy his meal at his cafe. By your lights, Sean is an evil ba***rd, the fellow should be able to spend the money where he wants. (not to suggest that may be at a pub) If this is true, starving guy should tell Sean to get stuffed.
If you are one who promotes reparations for past ills, then I have one.
I demand huge amounts of cash from Italy. Those ba***rds enslaved my people and made them build Hadrians stinking wall along with numerous baths, which they were prevented from using. Not to mention the horrorible violation of our women and thousands of murders.
Yes..When Will I Get My Past Due Deserts? Pay Up Now!!!
22 Feb 09
Originally posted by MacSwainI'll join up. Reparations for Anglo-Saxons, Picts, amd Belgae! We demand public apology from....from...{psst---who's the president of Italy?}
Where is this coming from? What if they didn't give the $337,623,000? Would that have been better? Why didn't you refuse the gift? Have you heard the old saw, "never look a gift horse in the mouth?" What does Germany owe you? Why should any other country give you money?
As comparison: Sean owns a cafe and sees a starving guy in the street. He offers the ...[text shortened]... women and thousands of murders.
Yes..When Will I Get My Past Due Deserts? Pay Up Now!!!
23 Feb 09
Originally posted by MacSwainYou seem to have totally misunderstood my post.
Where is this coming from? What if they didn't give the $337,623,000? Would that have been better? Why didn't you refuse the gift? Have you heard the old saw, "never look a gift horse in the mouth?" What does Germany owe you? Why should any other country give you money?