Originally posted by FMFYou are a liar!! Don't use me as an excuse for getting your arse handed to you by a legitimate poster. You're an idiot...
[b]to sit and talk about the humility in US donations is absurd.
I was reponding to dystoniac who seemed to think that a few dollars shelled out after the Tsunami could in some way be mentioned in reponse to a complaint about his country backing a butchering dictator for 3 decades. Some humility and penance on your part would not go amiss. No. It certainl ...[text shortened]... onesia, then don't. Your post smacks of being on a higher horse than the one I'm on.[/b]
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Originally posted by FMFWhat's not to understand?
You seem to have totally misunderstood my post.
1. You bitched about a country's GIFT to your country being niggardly.
2. You bitched about a country requiring their GIFT to be spent with their merchants.
3. You bitched even more is owed to your country for past wrongs as reparation.
If your attitude prevails in your country? Then your country is an ingrate - And I stand by my previous post.
Originally posted by MacSwainThe post was intended to enlighten you about what became of your money. Just so you know. The guy who says he gave $200, well, it probably never left the US and it probably had on impact whatsoever on the tsunami victims. But, wait - I mean, really - 200,000 people die in about 120 seconds, 2,000,000 homeless for weeks and weeks, your country sends some money, most of which was to no effect or perhaps even used detrimentally or in a way that pushed costs up astronomically and probably cost lives - and you've got your shorts all knotted and your chest all puffed out about whether someone on RHP is grateful enough. Goodness me.
What's not to understand?
1. You bitched about a country's GIFT to your country being niggardly.
2. You bitched about a country requiring their GIFT to be spent with their merchants.
3. You bitched even more is owed to your country for past wrongs as reparation.
If your attitude prevails in your country? Then your country is an ingrate - And I stand by my previous post.
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Originally posted by FMFI'm curious as to what your source of information on this is? Your claims sound exaggerated towards the negative but I'll keep an open mind if you can point me to some reliable information. It just sounds hard to believe that all or most of the money from the US was either not used to help victims or was used detrimentally whilst aid from other countries founds its way.
The post was intended to enlighten you about what became of your money. Just so you know. The guy who says he gave $200, well, it probably never left the US and it probably had on impact whatsoever on the tsunami victims. But, wait - I mean, really - 200,000 people die in about 120 seconds, 2,000,000 homeless for weeks and weeks, your country sends some m ...[text shortened]... ted and your chest all puffed out about whether someone on RHP is grateful enough. Goodness me.
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Originally posted by FMF😵 Really, how trite. As though anything said by government spokesmen or women for any nation describe what is the case. No, they always put things into terms that advance their interests while trying to appear altruistic, likeable, etc.
The post was intended to enlighten you about what became of your money. Just so you know. The guy who says he gave $200, well, it probably never left the US and it probably had on impact whatsoever on the tsunami victims. But, wait - I mean, really - 200,000 people die in about 120 seconds, 2,000,000 homeless for weeks and weeks, your country sends some m ted and your chest all puffed out about whether someone on RHP is grateful enough. Goodness me.
To accuse others of trying to puff themselves up, as having an excessive amount of self regard makes you one hell of a huge, hypocritical kettle, old bean.
You seem to have made a career out of adopting one pretentious moralistic pose after another, commenting as though you're the holy sage on the mountaintop living the purest of lives and therefore in a position to judge all others.
(polite, but not lengthy applause) Nice role playing on your part. How about coming down from the trees, the mountain top, the horse, or whatever heights you think you are on, getting into the trenches and telling the truth about what you do, what you know and so forth.
For those who aren't distracted by all the brightly colored, exotic gestures of your pretences, the concept of self interest isn't exactly news about which one should get one's panties in a twist.
Of course nations with lots more money than others "give" money as "aid" to other nations -- and I'd be truly surprised if any significant amount from any nation given to another doesn't in some substantial way come with strings or actually merely get funneled into the pockets of the political pals of the leaders who decided to "donate" the money.
I've a friend who designs very large ships. He works for defense agencies. He was the first to let me know what the insides of both government contracting and foreign "aid" really look like. One ship is being built in a shipyard someplace in the southern USA. It is a warship for Egypt that Egypt, I'm told, neither wants nor needs. In such ways billions of US foreign aid goes to support domestic heavy industries.
Of course there are exceptions here and there -- hard to pull an entire scam on a financial scale similar to the ship matter when all you need do is ship a bunch of cheap rice, etc. as humanitarian aid. Of course, someone in the USA is making out like a bandit for the US gov usually pays a premium for what it gives away so those who sold the gov the grain get something for their political contributions.
And it has always been thus - and not just in the USA, of course. To be aware of this is not to approve, but the age at which all this indignation seems appropriate is many decades ago, when one was still basically a babe in the woods.
So what's all this hand wringing over what is, after all, a practice going back to the dawn of recorded history? Seems naive, or cynical, or boorish, take your pick. Or is it too much to ask for an adult approach to this subject?
Gee, the USA supported a murderous dictator -- and other countries don't do that, of course. At least, other countries who cannot afford proxies don't do that. Otherwise, yes, they do. It is one of the tools in the higher powered nations' toolbox and those with the means all use it.
There is no free lunch. Everything has a price and comes with strings attached. Nothing is entirely done by governments out of purity of heart. There is always a mix of genuine humanitarianism sullied to one degree or another by interests that must be served.
So what is there to get all puffed up and indignant about? This is human nature -- this is who we all are. Aspire to something better? Sure, but you might as well pine away and snivel some more about how poorly designed is our solar system as to throw all those asteroids and comets around -- or some other attribute of nature. Nature, after all, is no accident. Dice is not being played with the universe.
So posing as though you are in some way morally superior to the way things are now and always have been appears like either hypocrisy or a severe lack of education about the world that is the case.
There may be some who want to represent their own nations or themselves as being as pure as the driven snow. If they are, in either case, they are on a rather self-destructive course in the world that is the case. Only those people and nations who know how to play the game as it is survive and advance.
Why not spare us all the anti-american nonsense already? It is boring, to say the least.
Everything of which the USA stands accused may indeed be something this country did and for the reasons the indignant poseurs assert.
So what?
You don't like it?
Yes, and?
What follows from that?
Some may think it important to believe the spin that packages their own country, religion, or other interest group as cover for what they are really about and doing to advance their interests.
Spin isn't important at all, and I am speaking as an ex-S.Ph.D. (yes, I've a doctorate in spin, and so has my wife). If you have ever drafted congressional testimony or speeches to be given by high ranking appointed government officials you surely recall that in the world that is the case, it is only one's Count that votes.
Originally posted by FMFFirst of all - there you go again, not my money.
The post was intended to enlighten you about what became of your money. Just so you know. The guy who says he gave $200, well, it probably never left the US and it probably had on impact whatsoever on the tsunami victims. But, wait - I mean, really - 200,000 people die in about 120 seconds, 2,000,000 homeless for weeks and weeks, your country sends some m ...[text shortened]... ted and your chest all puffed out about whether someone on RHP is grateful enough. Goodness me.
Second, who cares. The worlds economy is in shambles and you suppose rubbish about an un-fulfilled gift to Jakarta, of all places, is an emergency which merits your "enlightening" RHPers.
In addition, at any rate, you really don't want any money from US. They have the presses running day and night pumping out, thus far, 2 trillion "un-secured" cash at this point. In 6 months time this worthless cash will light the inflation bomb under the dollar and all US dollars will be valued at about 50% less than today. Pity its not printed on soft tissue so it would have a worth in toilet. 😛
Originally posted by UllrBack in May 2008 I had a hard copy of a government document that I was translating for an organization that was part of the BRR consortium (State Reconstruction & Rehabilitation Board) for Aceh, North Sumatera and Nias, as well as a key knowledge management adviser to the World Bank. So that's where I am coming from. I'm not going looking for anything more than this. The other stuff is from the grapevine here. Make of it what you want. The US folks that turned up in Aceh outbid other NGOs for office space in Medan and in Aceh itself by a factor of 10 in many cases. Some kind of hairy chest thing, it seems. Of course this money went directly to absentee landlords in Jakarta, and was spent on third homes in Perth and Santa Cruz, and it forced the price of HQ space up tenfold for everybody. US outfits did the same thing with transport. Fuel. Precurement. Hired hands. Bribes. Competitive spirit, I suppose you'd call it. Others would say crass ignorance. All this money - millions and millions of dollars ultimately - was literally withheld from those who needed it thanks to corporate and patriotic rivalries - in the realm of disaster relief!! - that are quite bemusing to organizations hailing from many non-American cultures. Added to which, sourcing aid food and equipment at 'home', where it is fantastically more expensive, rather than in the developing world - and in this case, Indonesia itself - is such an abject conceptual faux pas that I am surprised MacSwain had the gall to question it. He probably just doesn't understand. Look, it's knuckle-bitingly pispoor form. Stand back. Think about it. It's worst-of-corrupt-Africa-esque. Fellow relief workers from countries other than the US just shake their heads in resignation. And they do this even moreso when they think of what UN officials, in their immaculately pressed white trousers, say and do and think.
I'm curious as to what your source of information on this is? Your claims sound exaggerated towards the negative but I'll keep an open mind if you can point me to some reliable information. It just sounds hard to believe that all or most of the money from the US was either not used to help victims or was used detrimentally whilst aid from other countries founds its way.
Originally posted by MacSwainLook. Almost a quarter of a million people died. The aid effort was a mess. Money was wasted. Countries fibbed about how much they gave. And you are trying to turn the issue into what one non-Indonesian person thinks about it, and whether or not I feel 'grateful'? Blimey. That's some periscope you've got there. Can you tell the really big ships from the little ones? As for me writing "rubbish" about "Jakarta", after witnessing the relief effort close up and talking to probably hundreds of people, and posting it here at RHP, that's fine. Your call. But your shallow, snide, pompous retorts have probably simply enhanced the "rubbish" I've coughed up. So thanks for that. One wonders what you reckon you have provided RHPers with these last couple of posts.
First of all - there you go again, not my money.
Second, who cares. The worlds economy is in shambles and you suppose rubbish about an un-fulfilled gift to Jakarta, of all places, is an emergency which merits your "enlightening" RHPers.
In addition, at any rate, you really don't want any money from US. They have the presses running day and night pumpi ...[text shortened]... less than today. Pity its not printed on soft tissue so it would have a worth in toilet. 😛
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Originally posted by ScriabinWhat? And I don't know this?
Really, how truly amusing. As though anything said by government spokesmen or women for any nation describe what is the case. No, they always put things into terms that advance their interests while trying to appear altruistic, likeable, etc.
The most transparent strawman type post. Dripping with unfounded, tedious and cliche-strewn condescension. Thanks for the Bears Poo In The Woods lecture.
Give it a rest. You're a standing joke here, Scriabin.
Originally posted by FMFYou'd like to think so.
What? And I don't know this?
The most transparent strawman type post. Dripping with unfounded, tedious and cliche-strewn condescension. Thanks for the Bears Poo In The Woods lecture.
Give it a rest. You're a standing joke here, Scriabin.
But you are far far more funny.
Sort of Brit ex-pat comic relief.
And a true poseur - it isn't condescension. We who know this also know you know this -- but it is worth pointing out to those who do not seem to know this the complete lugubriousnous of your pompous outpourings of self-righteous indignation.
Sorry you haven't gotten further in life than you'd like, but not my problem.