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  1. 06 May '15 19:54
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/vladimir-putin-15-ways-he-changed-russia-world

    "Putin enjoys perhaps the highest approval rating of any Kremlin leader
    --an approval rating that topped 86% in February (2015)."

    "Under Putin, the (Great Patriotic War) has become a rallying point, and
    a 2014 law criminalises the 'distortion' of the Soviet Union's role in the war."
  2. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    08 May '15 18:21
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/vladimir-putin-15-ways-he-changed-russia-world

    "Putin enjoys perhaps the highest approval rating of any Kremlin leader
    --an approval rating that topped 86% in February (2015)."

    "Under Putin, the (Great Patriotic War) has become a rallying point, and
    a 2014 law criminalises the 'distortion' of the Soviet Union's role in the war."
    I'm not a fan of Putin, but his leadership has brought about a better economy for the Russian people, and a sense of national pride that was badly depressed after the fall of the Soviet Union. Putin's Government is corrupt, and the Russian people have lost some of their freedoms, but they fare better economically.
  3. 08 May '15 18:34
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/vladimir-putin-15-ways-he-changed-russia-world

    "Putin enjoys perhaps the highest approval rating of any Kremlin leader
    --an approval rating that topped 86% in February (2015)."

    "Under Putin, the (Great Patriotic War) has become a rallying point, and
    a 2014 law criminalises the 'distortion' of the Soviet Union's role in the war."
    Just out of curiosity, what was Hitler's approval rating at his peak, or is that info available?

    I think people love dictators, just so long as they like what they are doing.
  4. 08 May '15 19:11
    Originally posted by bill718
    I'm not a fan of Putin, but his leadership has brought about a better economy for the Russian people, and a sense of national pride that was badly depressed after the fall of the Soviet Union. Putin's Government is corrupt, and the Russian people have lost some of their freedoms, but they fare better economically.
    And again, people idiotically valuing economics over everything else.

    Try being gay in Moscow and get back to us.

    Or just try to voice a dissenting view to that of Putin and The Party.


    Or perhaps you would like to be a citizen of a neighbouring country wondering if you
    are about to be annexed or thrown into a civil war because Putin doesn't like how
    your election turned out.

    I despise whodey, but his post is right on point.

    Hitler did great things for the German economy and people [as long as you weren't Jewish,
    an atheist, or any other disliked minority group, or stood up to Hitler, ect ect]
    until they
    started loosing the war.

    Those 'freedoms' they have given up are VITAL freedoms people over the centuries have fought
    and died for.

    And yet people seem ready to give them up for a better economic stimulus package.
  5. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    08 May '15 20:18
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    And again, people idiotically valuing economics over everything else.

    Try being gay in Moscow and get back to us.

    Or just try to voice a dissenting view to that of Putin and The Party.


    Or perhaps you would like to be a citizen of a neighbouring country wondering if you
    are about to be annexed or thrown into a civil war because Putin doesn't ...[text shortened]... d died for.

    And yet people seem ready to give them up for a better economic stimulus package.
    Calm down googlefudge, I'm not endorsing Putin in any way, I'm just stating facts.
  6. 08 May '15 20:58
    Originally posted by bill718
    Calm down googlefudge, I'm not endorsing Putin in any way, I'm just stating facts.
    Ahh, but the facts you choose to state says something more than just the facts themselves.
  7. 08 May '15 21:18 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by googlefudge to Bill718
    And again, people idiotically valuing economics over everything else.
    Try being gay in Moscow and get back to us.
    Or just try to voice a dissenting view to that of Putin and The Party.

    Or perhaps you would like to be a citizen of a neighbouring country wondering if you
    are about to be annexed or thrown into a civil war because Put d died for.

    And yet people seem ready to give them up for a better economic stimulus package.
    While I believe that Putin has censored and manipulated the Russian media, given his high
    approval ratings, it seems likely that Putin would win a 'free and fair' election in Russia.

    "Try being gay in Moscow and get back to us."
    --Googlefudge

    It's easier to be gay in Moscow (where a gay subculture exists) than in most of Russia.
    Putin has drawn approval from the Russian Orthodox Church, for instance, by posing as
    a champion of 'traditional values'.

    Is Putin different from many conservative Westerners in his disapproval of LGBT people?
    Does Googlefudge believe that Alan Turing (a gay man) should have refused to serve
    the UK in the Second World War because the UK had criminalized homosexuality?
    After being convicted of homosexual 'indecency', Alan Turing was driven to commit suicide.

    "Hitler did great things for ... as long as you weren't an atheist..."
    --Googlefudge

    Can Googlefudge cite any evidence of Hitler persecuting atheists simply for being atheists?
    (In the Spirituality forum, some Christians seem paranoid about Christians being persecuted.
    Is Googlefudge, an atheist, also paranoid about atheists being persecuted?)
  8. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    08 May '15 22:06
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    While I believe that Putin has censored and manipulated the Russian media, given his high
    approval ratings, it seems likely that Putin would win a 'free and fair' election in Russia.

    "Try being gay in Moscow and get back to us."
    --Googlefudge

    It's easier to be gay in Moscow (where a gay subculture exists) than in most of Russia.
    Putin has drawn a ...[text shortened]... s being persecuted.
    Is Googlefudge, an atheist, also paranoid about atheists being persecuted?)
    Turing was not a suicide. The only reason that suicide was entered as the cause of death was the prejudice of the coroner: "these people [homosexuals] are hysterical" or words to that effect. His mother was not of the opinion that he committed suicide and he reportedly was in quite good spirits despite the chemical program they put him on.

    His hobby was gold electroplating of spoons. This involves the use of cyanide and he was notoriously slack about safety. The medical evidence indicates inhalation rather than ingestion as the mode the poison entered his body.

    I think that it is an insult to his memory to call him a suicide, the guy was pretty tough and not "hysterical" at all. His death was either accidental or by misadventure. His sexuality should not have been illegal in the first place and the conviction should not have occurred, but he did not commit suicide.
  9. 08 May '15 22:26
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Turing was not a suicide. The only reason that suicide was entered as the cause of death was the prejudice of the coroner: "these people [homosexuals] are hysterical" or words to that effect. His mother was not of the opinion that he committed suicide and he reportedly was in quite good spirits despite the chemical program they put him on.

    His hobby ...[text shortened]... l in the first place and the conviction should not have occurred, but he did not commit suicide.
    My general point was that Alan Turing was unfairly treated (in my opinion) on account
    of prejudice (which was reflected in the laws) against his homosexuality in the UK.
    I mentioned Alan Turing's death as a tragic consequence of his mistreatment.

    "(Alan) Turing was not a suicide."
    --DeepThought

    "Biographer Andrew Hodges suggests that Turing may have arranged the cyanide
    experiment deliberately, to give his mother some plausible deniability (about suicide)."
    --Wikipedia

    "I think it an insult to his memory to call him a suicide."
    --DeepThought

    Unlike DeepThought, I don't regard suicide as necessarily cowardly, dishonourable, or lunacy.
    (As I recall, DeepThought was brought up as a Christian in the UK.)

    "...he (Alan Turing) did not commit suicide."
    --DeepThought

    I have no emotional attachment either toward his death being accidental or suicidal.
    It seems fairest to say that scholars of Alan Turing have some differences of opinion
    about the causes of or motives for his death.
  10. 08 May '15 22:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by bill718
    I'm not a fan of Putin, but his leadership has brought about a better economy for the Russian people, and a sense of national pride that was badly depressed after the fall of the Soviet Union. Putin's Government is corrupt, and the Russian people have lost some of their freedoms, but they fare better economically.
    Most Russians no longer care much, if they ever did, about Westerners thinking badly
    of Russian leaders. Russian and Western perceptions tend to be quite different.
    According to Stephen Cohen, an American scholar of the USSR and Russia, Boris
    Yeltsin 'led' Russia to economic and social ruin, all while the West was cheering him on.

    "Much of the Yeltsin era was marked by widespread corruption, inflation, economic
    collapse, and enormous political and social problems..."
    --Wikipedia

    Shortly after the disintegration of the USSR, there was a dramatic fall in the living standards
    of many, if not most, Russians. Many well-educated people lost their jobs; many
    retired people found that their pensions had become practically worthless. Women
    were particularly hurt economically and socially, given that sexism quickly reemerged.
    Some well-educated women found that the only jobs they could get were far beneath
    their capabilities. I found it particularly sad to hear of some very intelligent, well-educated
    young women seriously considering becoming prostitutes to serve affluent Westerners
    because that was the only available occupation at which they would be paid more than
    a pittance. I can understand why Western capitalists (and their Russian cronies) would
    embrace a 'new Russia ' that appeared so ripe for their rapacious exploitation.
  11. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    08 May '15 23:02
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Most Russians no longer care much, if they ever did, about Westerners thinking badly
    of Russian leaders. Russian and Western perceptions tend to be quite different.
    According to Stephen Cohen, an American scholar of the USSR and Russia, Boris
    Yeltsin 'led' Russia to economic and social ruin, all while the West was cheering him on.

    "Much of the Yelt ...[text shortened]... cronies) would
    embrace a 'new Russia ' that appeared so ripe for their rapacious exploitation.
    This is the basic contradiction. Without Putin Russia would still be in the state of tinpottery that Yeltsin left it in, with Putin they are being run by the secret police.
  12. 09 May '15 18:29 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64 to DeepThought
    My general point was that Alan Turing was unfairly treated (in my opinion) on account
    of prejudice (which was reflected in the laws) against his homosexuality in the UK.
    I mentioned Alan Turing's death as a tragic consequence of his mistreatment.

    "(Alan) Turing was not a suicide."
    --DeepThought

    "Biographer Andrew Hodges suggests th ...[text shortened]... s of Alan Turing have some differences of opinion
    about the causes of or motives for his death.
    Again, I have no preference either way for Alan Turing's death being classified as a
    suicide or not. The coroner's official verdict remains, however, that it was a suicide.
    (Andrew Hodges, a biographer of Alan Turing, apparently believes that's plausible.)
    I don't claim to be any position to write as though I were certain that it was not suicide.

    Given that DeepThought seems absolutely certain that Alan Turing's death was not a
    suicide, if he knows of any relevant new evidence, then he should consider petitioning
    for an reopening of the inquest into Alan Turing's death.
  13. 09 May '15 18:36
    Originally posted by Duchess64 to Googlefudge
    While I believe that Putin has censored and manipulated the Russian media, given his high
    approval ratings, it seems likely that Putin would win a 'free and fair' election in Russia.

    "Try being gay in Moscow and get back to us."
    --Googlefudge

    It's easier to be gay in Moscow (where a gay subculture exists) than in most of Russia.
    Pu ...[text shortened]... s being persecuted.
    Is Googlefudge, an atheist, also paranoid about atheists being persecuted?)
    Googlefudge has included 'atheists' among the groups of people that he believes were
    persecuted by Hitler. Again, can Googlefudge (an atheist) cite any evidence of Hitler
    persecuting atheists simply for being atheists? As a historian, I would like to discover
    something that I don't know yet, as long as it's not another fabricated 'historical fact'.

    There's some evidence, however, that Hitler disapproved of some generals whom he
    perceived as too devout Christians, perhaps because he suspected that they might
    put their religious principles ahead of their loyalty to himself and the NSDAP-led state.
    I don't know of any evidence that Hitler disapproved of any of his generals for being
    non-religious or even anti-religious.
  14. 09 May '15 18:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    This is the basic contradiction. Without Putin Russia would still be in the state of tinpottery that Yeltsin left it in,
    with Putin they are being run by the secret police.
    According to what I have read, Boris Yeltsin was the recent Russian leader whom most
    Westerners admire the most. But his 'leadership' was a disaster for the Russian people,
    and, by the time Boris Yeltsin resigned as Russia's president, he had become almost
    universally despised. According to Wikipedia. his approval rating was as low as 2%.

    When Westerners laud Yeltsin and demonize Putin, they obviously don't care about what
    most Russians think of their leaders. But most Westerners don't care about Russian lives,
    it seems to me, and most Russians already take that into account in dealing with Westerners.
  15. 09 May '15 19:28
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    According to what I have read, Boris Yeltsin was the recent Russian leader whom most
    Westerners admire the most. But his 'leadership' was a disaster for the Russian people,
    and, by the time Boris Yeltsin resigned as Russia's president, he had become almost
    universally despised. According to Wikipedia. his approval rating was as low as 2%.

    When West ...[text shortened]... s,
    it seems to me, and most Russians already take that into account in dealing with Westerners.
    Anyone who can promise the glory and respect of the elder days will be loved by the population. It worked for Hitler too, as well as other dictators.