Originally posted by utherpendragon "cowering in its bases" is calling them cowards
No it isn't. "the French troops cowered in the freezing waterlogged trenches as the German poison gas shells rained down". I choose my words carefully and then you trample all over the nuances and make me feel clever.
Originally posted by whodey True, but he still faces a quandery. If he pulls out like he says he needs to do so before the next election. However, if it then all blows up in the face of the US he will get blamed.
You know, the odds are not too good for him to fare well in this, but I suppose they can then blame Bush once again.
The public wants us out. Whatever happens in Iraq are the Iraqis' problem. Sure, the Republican will try to make political hay no matter what happens, but who cares? The Republican position on Iraq has been completely rejected by the voters in 2006 and 2008. I doubt it will be suddenly embraced in 2010 and/or 2012.
Originally posted by whodey True, but he still faces a quandery. If he pulls out like he says he needs to do so before the next election. However, if it then all blows up in the face of the US he will get blamed.
You know, the odds are not too good for him to fare well in this, but I suppose they can then blame Bush once again.
So you went from" why is nobody crying to get out of Iraq" to " now that they are it will blow up in his face" great bit of argument. your freeking brilliant.
Originally posted by FMF What 'all out war'? The last all out war was over half a century ago,
If the military - which costs you Americans $700,000,000,000 a year - is not ready and able to fight the kind of wars that Americans need it to fight, and huffily calls being asked to do so a'misuse' of the military, the taxpayers really ought to be asking serious questions.
Actually Iraq is a big success compared to Vietnam. USArmy obviously learned a lot from that debacle.
I'm not sure where the comment about "massive strategic and tactical blunders" is coming from -- maybe referring to Rumsfeld. He made a bunch of boneheaded moves in the beginning. But he resigned and the Army shifted tactics and strategy (e.g. "The Surge" ) as needed and have been largely successful since.
So if we count it up since the last "big" war:
Korea_______ drawn
Vietnam_____ loss
Kuwait_______ won
Iraq ________ won
The US Army is ahead on points. I agree about the maintenance costs being outrageous, though. I want to see some NKorean missiles shot out of the air for that price.
On balance, it looks like the outcome in Iraq has a chance of turning out well. Dictator gone and replaced with democratic state. We shall see.
Originally posted by spruce112358 Actually Iraq is a big success compared to Vietnam. USArmy obviously learned a lot from that debacle.
I'm not sure where the comment about "massive strategic and tactical blunders" is coming from -- maybe referring to Rumsfeld. He made a bunch of boneheaded moves in the beginning. But he resigned and the Army shifted tactics and strategy (e.g. "The S ...[text shortened]... ance of turning out well. Dictator gone and replaced with democratic state. We shall see.
That's shifting what the goal was. The US leadership didn't care whether Iraq had a democratic state; they wanted a pro-Western, pro-Israel, Iraq who's economy was dominated by foreign rich guys and that would agree to host dozens of permanent US military bases on Iraqi soil. They won't get it, so the Iraqi insurgents have effectively defeated the US.
Originally posted by no1marauder That's shifting what the goal was. The US leadership didn't care whether Iraq had a democratic state; they wanted a pro-Western, pro-Israel, Iraq who's economy was dominated by foreign rich guys and that would agree to host dozens of permanent US military bases on Iraqi soil. They won't get it, so the Iraqi insurgents have effectively defeated the US.
All you are saying is that the US succeeded in a fashion far beyond the limited mental grasp of midgets like Bush and Cheney.
Originally posted by spruce112358 All you are saying is that the US succeeded in a fashion far beyond the limited mental grasp of midgets like Bush and Cheney.
Well, I guess you got me there!
Considering the massive amount of death, destruction and suffering the US meted out to the Iraqi people, it's remarkable that they might be able to end up with anything positive out of this debacle. I always thought that the most likely scenario was a breakup of Iraq into separate states, but so far they seem determined to keep Iraq intact. And the possibility of a government dominated by religious extremists seems considerably less now.
The Iraqis have proven to be a resilient people. No credit goes to the savages in Washington who made them bleed for such unworthy neo-Colonialist goals.
Originally posted by FMF No it isn't. "the French troops cowered in the freezing waterlogged trenches as the German poison gas shells rained down". I choose my words carefully and then you trample all over the nuances and make me feel clever.
Some of the French military rifles were sold in this country with an ad that said "never been fired, and only dropped once".
Originally posted by no1marauder Considering the massive amount of death, destruction and suffering the US meted out to the Iraqi people, it's remarkable that they might be able to end up with anything positive out of this debacle. I always thought that the most likely scenario was a breakup of Iraq into separate states, but so far they seem determined to keep Iraq intact. And the possi ...[text shortened]... goes to the savages in Washington who made them bleed for such unworthy neo-Colonialist goals.
Boats and planes leave this nation around the clock,Perez. If your so unhappy here ,catch one!
Originally posted by whodey I got to thinking the other day, where are the cries to leave Iraq? Where are the Cindy Shennans of the world? Are they simply resigned to the fact that "W" is gone and assume Obama will leave?
If Obama spent half his time trying to leave Iraq as he is on these other massive issues such as cap and trade, it seems to me we would be gone by now. Heck, I ...[text shortened]... orists have been appeased by the Messiah's appearence just like that of the average liberal.
It never stopped. Look for an internet activist called "The Pen". I somehow got on his email list.
Originally posted by no1marauder Considering the massive amount of death, destruction and suffering the US meted out to the Iraqi people, it's remarkable that they might be able to end up with anything positive out of this debacle. I always thought that the most likely scenario was a breakup of Iraq into separate states, but so far they seem determined to keep Iraq intact. And the possi ...[text shortened]... goes to the savages in Washington who made them bleed for such unworthy neo-Colonialist goals.
Originally posted by joe beyser Some of the French military rifles were sold in this country with an ad that said "never been fired, and only dropped once".
What an odd thing to make fun of.
You Americans beat your chests about military pomp and the glory of war. Which, to me, is gauche and puerile. Deluded too. But for the preening and the mythologizing not to even be universal strips it of the trace of humanity that might have been there in at least honouring the dead.
1,397,800 French soldiers died in the First World War. How many spent their dying moments coughing up their lungs on poison gas?
My dad was a Korean War Vet. He told me that he felt that over all the war seemed pointless. All he wanted to do was make it home. He was telling me that equipment failure was a big issue. He said a lot of the equipment was WW1 vintage. I know he was proud to be an American but he struggled with Korea. I think Vietnam politics ruled. Our military basically blew the Vietnamese country side into a lunar scape. I don't think however we could have won that war because the will of the Vietnamese people was strong. I've been reading a book called the tunnels of Cu Chi it's crazy.
30 Jun '09 07:56
Where is the cry to get out of Iraq?
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