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Debates Forum

  1. 29 Jun '09 11:25 / 1 edit
    I got to thinking the other day, where are the cries to leave Iraq? Where are the Cindy Shennans of the world? Are they simply resigned to the fact that "W" is gone and assume Obama will leave?

    If Obama spent half his time trying to leave Iraq as he is on these other massive issues such as cap and trade, it seems to me we would be gone by now. Heck, I don't even hear about lives lost in Iraq any more. Perhaps the terrorists have been appeased by the Messiah's appearence just like that of the average liberal.
  2. 29 Jun '09 11:57
    Originally posted by whodey
    I got to thinking the other day, where are the cries to leave Iraq? Where are the Cindy Shennans of the world? Are they simply resigned to the fact that "W" is gone and assume Obama will leave?

    If Obama spent half his time trying to leave Iraq as he is on these other massive issues such as cap and trade, it seems to me we would be gone by now. Heck, I ...[text shortened]... orists have been appeased by the Messiah's appearence just like that of the average liberal.
    For a long while the network news kept a daily tally of the dead in the corner of the screen while W was in there. I dont see any protest either.Or,atleast none being covered.No double standard there.
  3. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    29 Jun '09 12:15
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    For a long while the network news kept a daily tally of the dead in the corner of the screen while W was in there. I dont see any protest either.Or,atleast none being covered.No double standard there.
    I assumed the U.S. military, having made such a pigs ear of the whole thing, was cowering in its bases, hardly engaging anymore, waiting for Obama to pluck them out of there. Hence the lack of the 'tally of dead' that you seem to miss.
  4. 29 Jun '09 12:30
    Originally posted by FMF
    I assumed the U.S. military, having made such a pigs ear of the whole thing, was cowering in its bases, hardly engaging anymore, waiting for Obama to pluck them out of there. Hence the lack of the 'tally of dead' that you seem to miss.
    How did the U.S. military make a pigs ear of anything?!
  5. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    29 Jun '09 12:39 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    I got to thinking the other day, where are the cries to leave Iraq? Where are the Cindy Shennans of the world? Are they simply resigned to the fact that "W" is gone and assume Obama will leave?

    If Obama spent half his time trying to leave Iraq as he is on these other massive issues such as cap and trade, it seems to me we would be gone by now. Heck, I orists have been appeased by the Messiah's appearence just like that of the average liberal.
    Like all new Presidents, Obama is finding out that things are a lot different on this side of the big desk. It's easy to talk about what you would do if you were in charge. It's hard to actually be in charge. For the first time in his life, Obama's decisions actually matter and thankfully he's responsible enough to not just be an ideologue.

    Remember "read my lips... no new taxes!" morphing into "Gee, we need more revenue; maybe a new tax or two"?

    As for Cindy Sheehan, it was never really about leaving Iraq. Her son is already dead and leaving Iraq is not going to bring him back. With her, it was about her obsessive hatred of Bush and her blaming Bush for the death of her son. Now that Bush is gone, maybe she can do something constructive, like keep her mouth shut.
  6. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    29 Jun '09 12:42
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    How did the U.S. military make a pigs ear of anything?!
    How they did it will keep military historians busy for years, so I'm really not the one to ask. Especially so soon after it happened. Historical analysis benefits from the passage of time.
  7. 29 Jun '09 12:46
    Originally posted by FMF
    How they did it will keep military historians busy for years, so I'm really not the one to ask. Especially so soon after it happened. Historical analysis benefits from the passage of time.
    your out of your mind
  8. Standard member DrKF
    incipit parodia
    29 Jun '09 12:47
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    How did the U.S. military make a pigs ear of anything?!
    Like FMF said, it will take a whole load of military historians to make full sense of the bloody quagmire the US military managed to create in Iraq.

    But in the meantime, 'patriotism' aside, are you seriously saying there were not massive strategic and tactical errors in the invasion and occupation of Iraq?
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    29 Jun '09 12:51
    Originally posted by whodey
    I got to thinking the other day, where are the cries to leave Iraq? Where are the Cindy Shennans of the world? Are they simply resigned to the fact that "W" is gone and assume Obama will leave?

    If Obama spent half his time trying to leave Iraq as he is on these other massive issues such as cap and trade, it seems to me we would be gone by now. Heck, I ...[text shortened]... orists have been appeased by the Messiah's appearence just like that of the average liberal.
    Obama never said the US military would be out of Iraq by June 2009. Tomorrow US troops will leave the cities of Iraq as per his plan which also has a scheduled date for all US combat troops to be out of Iraq. Why should people be upset when he does exactly what he says he was going to do?
  10. 29 Jun '09 13:09
    Originally posted by DrKF
    Like FMF said, it will take a whole load of military historians to make full sense of the bloody quagmire the US military managed to create in Iraq.

    But in the meantime, 'patriotism' aside, are you seriously saying there were not massive strategic and tactical errors in the invasion and occupation of Iraq?
    Strategic & tactical errors in the invasion? It was over in 21 days. That says it all right there.
    The occupation? Thats on the politicians not the military.
  11. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    29 Jun '09 13:12
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    The occupation? Thats on the politicians not the military.
    Ooh Ooh. The Patriot trying to distance himself from the U.S. military and its poor performance during the occupation!
  12. Standard member DrKF
    incipit parodia
    29 Jun '09 13:20
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Strategic & tactical errors in the invasion? It was over in 21 days. That says it all right there.
    The occupation? Thats on the politicians not the military.
    The 'plan' for the invasion led inexorably to the hideous mess that followed - and I'm not massively interested in which group of 'planners' you want to blame for the occupation debacle; it abounded with tactical and strategic blunders that will exercise the minds of military historians whichever way you want to call it.
  13. 29 Jun '09 13:21
    Originally posted by FMF
    Ooh Ooh. The Patriot trying to distance himself from the U.S. military and its poor performance during the occupation!
    The military is not designed to occupy like this. Vietnam is another example of the misuse of the military. As far as all out war,the U.S. Military is the best beyond compare.
  14. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    29 Jun '09 13:24 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    The military is not designed to occupy like this. Vietnam is another example of the misuse of the military. As far as all out war,the U.S. Military is the best beyond compare.
    What 'all out war'? The last all out war was over half a century ago,

    If the military - which costs you Americans $700,000,000,000 a year - is not ready and able to fight the kind of wars that Americans need it to fight, and huffily calls being asked to do so a'misuse' of the military, the taxpayers really ought to be asking serious questions.
  15. Standard member DrKF
    incipit parodia
    29 Jun '09 13:26
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    The military is not designed to occupy like this. Vietnam is another example of the misuse of the military. As far as all out war,the U.S. Military is the best beyond compare.
    So, given a situation that has not occurred in over fifty years, the US military would, you reckon, be the very best of the best. Fair enough.

    But, in the face of what we have come to regard as the most likely form of contemporary conflict since the end of WWII (ie 'unconventional' warfare), they aren't so hot?

    Then I'd have to suggest that there is one over-riding, hubristic and downright crazy strategic error at the heart of the US military - one that will be exposed again and again, unless someone can manage to generate 'all out war' to demonstrate the superiority of US forces...