Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    17 Apr '17 16:49
    The latest odds are:

    Emmanuel Macron: 1
    Francois Fillon: 11/4
    Marine Le Pen: 3
    Jean Luc Melenchon: 15/2

    I'm surprised by how much I like Melenchon, maybe because Jeremy Corbyn had soured my opinion of the left.
  2. Subscriberkmax87
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    17 Apr '17 17:27
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    The latest odds are:

    Emmanuel Macron: 1
    Francois Fillon: 11/4
    Marine Le Pen: 3
    Jean Luc Melenchon: 15/2

    I'm surprised by how much I like Melenchon, maybe because Jeremy Corbyn had soured my opinion of the left.
    I don't get how a leader can sour anyone's support. Maybe I don't get it anymore, but you're supposed to get out and learn a bit about life, develop a worldview and then support a political ideology that best articulates and follows through on all the big ticket items.

    The leader should only maintain the core attributes of the party and try to remind the faithful of what that means.
  3. Germany
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    17 Apr '17 19:27
    If I would have to vote, I'd vote Macron. He probably isn't going to make things much better in France, but unlike the other three main contenders (Hamon seems highly unlikely to reach the second round at this point) is not sure to make things much worse.
  4. Subscriberdivegeester
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    17 Apr '17 19:36
    Originally posted by kmax87
    The leader should only maintain the core attributes of the party and try to remind the faithful of what that means.
    You seem to to have a somewhat limited idea of what leadership is.
  5. Subscriberdivegeester
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    17 Apr '17 19:37
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    The latest odds are:

    Emmanuel Macron: 1
    Francois Fillon: 11/4
    Marine Le Pen: 3
    Jean Luc Melenchon: 15/2

    I'm surprised by how much I like Melenchon, maybe because Jeremy Corbyn had soured my opinion of the left.
    I have to confess I'm not up to speed with each of their manifestos.
  6. Standard memberAmaurote
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    17 Apr '17 19:511 edit
    Melenchon, although his interviews are so abstract and theorycentric they make your average Corbynista look like praxis: if you're a Corbyn supporter and you think Melenchon is a good example of a "populist" left-winger, think again; Corbyn is much more of a "populist" than Melenchon in relative terms, even if he's far less popular here. Macron is utterly beige - he even had a copy of Mandelson's autobiography on his bookshelves recently. The horrible thing is that it's all interesecting variables: France doesn't look like its capable of electing a Podemos-style candidate, so we're presumably left with rubbish like Fillon or Le Pen.
  7. Subscriberkmax87
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    18 Apr '17 02:502 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    You seem to to have a somewhat limited idea of what leadership is.
    I get what you're saying, but in the British Westminster system of parliamentary politics, the leader is not a president who once elected can do as they please and who can only be removed by office by engaging in an illegal act or one outside the purview of his role as defined by the constitution.

    Corbyn as the leader has the confidence of the majority of the party he leads and whether he is a charismatic dynamo who can sell the policies of his party and can prosecute the mandate of electoral victory (if he wins) by implementing the agenda articulated in the lead up to a general election is a moot point.

    Corbyn can lose the confidence of his party and be thrown under a bus in an instant.

    If the party says away with the New Labor third way tosh of the Blairites and Corbyn is tasked with championing the virtues of a return to a socialised, nationlised, former glory, then thats his remit and so be it (so be it - Soviet- get it comrade?)

    Whether his prosecution of the agenda as laid out and agreed to by the party at successive Labor Conferences is after a fashion and style reminiscent of the personality of a brown recyclable paper grocery bag then that also, is a moot point.

    So if Corbyn sours anyone's attitude to Labor then the person left disgruntled and disillusioned by Corbyn is in effect disappointed by the messenger, the guy on point. The focus of disgruntlement, ie the message, should be Labor.

    That Blair hijacked the Labor narrative and adopted pro corporate, economically rationalist arguments, that saw core Labor values transformed into a Thatcher lite trickle down 2.0 melange, is something the party faithful have been aching to change.

    Whether Corbyn prosecutes that change in a manner that inspires the electorate to get on board is neither here nor there. If the people see value in the arguments articulated by Labor then they will prevail. If Corbyn stops articulating the message as distilled by the party, then he will be rolled.

    If you think Corbyn is on the nose, then maybe your problem's with Labor.....
  8. Zugzwang
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    21 Apr '17 22:56
    Donald Trump has unofficially endorsed Marine Le Pen.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/donald-trump-marine-le-pen-french-presidential-election

    "Donald Trump: Marine Le Pen is 'strongest candidate' in French election:
    US president claims he did not ‘explicitly endorse’ when appearing to support the
    far-right leader known for her Islamophobic and xenophobic platform."
  9. Zugzwang
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    21 Apr '17 22:58
    Originally posted by Amaurote
    Melenchon, although his interviews are so abstract and theorycentric they make your average Corbynista look like praxis: if you're a Corbyn supporter and you think Melenchon is a good example of a "populist" left-winger, think again; Corbyn is much more of a "populist" than Melenchon in relative terms, even if he's far less popular here. Macron is utterly b ...[text shortened]... electing a Podemos-style candidate, so we're presumably left with rubbish like Fillon or Le Pen.
    Here are two different views of Jean-Luc Melenchon:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/19/jean-luc-melenchon-french-president-europe

    "Jean-Luc Mélenchon should be French president. Here’s why."
    --Olivier Tonneau

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/18/jean-luc-melenchon-germany-putin-french-presidential-race

    "Anti-German, soft on Putin – Mélenchon is no saviour of the left."
    --Natalie Nougayrede
  10. Standard membershavixmir
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    22 Apr '17 05:56
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Donald Trump has unofficially endorsed Marine Le Pen.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/donald-trump-marine-le-pen-french-presidential-election

    "Donald Trump: Marine Le Pen is 'strongest candidate' in French election:
    US president claims he did not ‘explicitly endorse’ when appearing to support the
    far-right leader known for her Islamophobic and xenophobic platform."
    Obviously he supports the least rational choice possible.

    A real hero.
    Proving that even heroes can have small hands and no brains.
  11. Germany
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    22 Apr '17 09:02
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Donald Trump has unofficially endorsed Marine Le Pen.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/21/donald-trump-marine-le-pen-french-presidential-election

    "Donald Trump: Marine Le Pen is 'strongest candidate' in French election:
    US president claims he did not ‘explicitly endorse’ when appearing to support the
    far-right leader known for her Islamophobic and xenophobic platform."
    That Donald Trump supports European neo-Nazis should come as a surprise to exactly nobody.
  12. Joined
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    22 Apr '17 09:27
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    That Donald Trump supports European neo-Nazis should come as a surprise to exactly nobody.
    She has been bowing and scraping to him for months. I'm not surprised he endorsed her, as if there's one thing about him is that he likes having his fat ego tickled.
  13. Zugzwang
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    22 Apr '17 19:46
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    She has been bowing and scraping to him for months. I'm not surprised he endorsed her,
    as if there's one thing about him is that he likes having his fat ego tickled.
    Marine Le Pen recently visited Putin In Moscow, apparently angling for his support
    by urging an end to economic sanctions against Russia.

    Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen--what a troika!
  14. Zugzwang
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    04 May '17 01:46
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/04/french-election-marine-le-pen-and-emmanuel-macron-trade-insults-in-tv-debate

    "French election: Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron trade insults in TV debate:
    Majority of French people polled feel that centrist candidate outperformed far right leader in ill-tempered clash."
  15. Joined
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    07 May '17 18:23
    Seems Macron has pulled it off. He wasn't my first choice, but I guess he beat Le Pen so oh well...

    I hope you do a good job, Mr Macron, otherwise I don't think we have seen the last of the Le Pen dynasty.
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