Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard membersh76
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    09 Jan '18 15:402 edits
    As I said on this board, I did not support the tax bill, although (at least according to the WSJ calculator), it will save me a lot of money.

    Let's assume the Dems come into power in 2020 or, at the latest, in 2024. Will they have the political guts to let the cuts sunset or even reverse them? Or is it like the ACA or most entitlement programs? When you're in opposition, you can rip it, but when you take power, it's much harder to take benefits away from people. Make no mistake, the tax cut may add trillions to the national debt (which is the main reason I opposed it), but it's a big boon for pretty much all families in red states and upper middle and upper class families everywhere.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    09 Jan '18 15:42
    Originally posted by @sh76
    As I said on this board, I did not support the tax bill, although (at least according to the WSJ calculator), it will save me a lot of money.

    Let's assume the Dems come into power in 2020 or, at the latest, in 2024. Will they have the political guts to let the cuts sunset or even reverse them? Or is it like the ACA or most entitlement programs? When you're ...[text shortened]... for pretty much all families in red states and upper middle and upper class families everywhere.
    They might ding the 1% but no, they won't dare raise taxes on anybody below that level or on businesses.
  3. Standard membersh76
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    09 Jan '18 15:441 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    They might ding the 1% but no, they won't dare raise taxes on anybody below that level or on businesses.
    So, is there any way that this government ever gets its budget anywhere close to balanced?
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    09 Jan '18 15:54
    Originally posted by @sh76
    So, is there any way that this government ever gets its budget anywhere close to balanced?
    The top 1% have 20% of national income. NI is $18.75 trillion. So their "take" is $3.75 trillion.

    Say you moved the effective rate of taxation on them from the present 23% to say 33%. That's an extra $375 billion a year. The present deficit is $440 billion (https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-federal-budget-breakdown-3305789) so you're almost there. End a war or two and you could make it.
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    09 Jan '18 15:57
    Originally posted by @sh76
    So, is there any way that this government ever gets its budget anywhere close to balanced?
    The next president will be super critical of Trump. Since he's done very little other than pass this tax legislation, I'd expect changes that would benefit the president's constituency. Thus, it seems a pretty good bet that state and local taxes will probably be deductible again.
  6. Standard membersh76
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    09 Jan '18 16:30
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    The top 1% have 20% of national income. NI is $18.75 trillion. So their "take" is $3.75 trillion.

    Say you moved the effective rate of taxation on them from the present 23% to say 33%. That's an extra $375 billion a year. The present deficit is $440 billion (https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-federal-budget-breakdown-3305789) so you're almost there. End a war or two and you could make it.
    So, I get to keep my tax cut, the 1% get stuck with a little extra hit they could certainly afford and we balance the budget?

    I could live with that.
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    09 Jan '18 17:59
    Originally posted by @sh76
    So, I get to keep my tax cut, the 1% get stuck with a little extra hit they could certainly afford and we balance the budget?

    I could live with that.
    Have you tried caring less about money?

    Sincere question, how much money you have seems like a pretty big deal to you.
  8. Standard membersh76
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    09 Jan '18 18:17
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    Have you tried caring less about money?

    Sincere question, how much money you have seems like a pretty big deal to you.
    I have a wife and five kids, a mortgage, parochial school tuitions, big food, clothing and utility bills and some underfunded retirement accounts I'd like to work on.

    Yeah, money is a pretty big deal for me. I need it to support my family.
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    09 Jan '18 19:19
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    Have you tried caring less about money?

    Sincere question, how much money you have seems like a pretty big deal to you.
    When the discussion is taxes, isn't money the primary issue?
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    09 Jan '18 19:30
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    They might ding the 1% but no, they won't dare raise taxes on anybody below that level or on businesses.
    dems didn't cut taxes for anyone either.
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    09 Jan '18 19:33
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    When the discussion is taxes, isn't money the primary issue?
    Yes, clearly, in this case. Hence my question. But of course there are other issues concerning taxes. Environmental issues, societal issues. Basically how are the paid taxes used.

    Sounds like a tiresome way to live, caring so much about money, to tell you the truth. But it's not my life, so meh.
  12. Subscriberkmax87
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    09 Jan '18 19:42
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    Yes, clearly, in this case. Hence my question. But of course there are other issues concerning taxes. Environmental issues, societal issues. Basically how are the paid taxes used.
    Your points effectively bookend the debate. If a lot of welfare programs get cut to narrow the budget deficit, will you like the society you eventually find yourself in, and will all that extra cash be worth it?
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    09 Jan '18 19:591 edit
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Your points effectively bookend the debate. If a lot of welfare programs get cut to narrow the budget deficit, will you like the society you eventually find yourself in, and will all that extra cash be worth it?
    I'm not sure what you mean by "will all that extra cash be worth it" since I made it quite clear I don't care much for money. Maybe I misunderstand you.

    And yes, I certainly agree that taxes and their financial implications are an important topic, certainly with regards to such things as welfare, but - and I say this admitting I don't know Sh76 personally at all - I don't think comparing him and people on welfare is quite fair.

    There comes a point, I feel, when caring how much more money you can save becomes sort of silly, since you already have more than enough, and voting for the other political party - the party that might cost you (=Person-who-already-has-a-ton-of-money) a bit more money in taxes but will in turn be somewhat kinder to the environment and the weaker part of society - seems like the more logical thing to do.

    And I do think it is an odd humanistic trait that a lot of us never seem to feel we have enough when it comes to money. Which is why the superrich CEO of a huge company will still want to give himself a big bonus, and will still try to use every loophole that is available when paying taxes.

    I'm not really criticizing, I'm just entertained by the hunger for money that seems ingrained in most humans.
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    09 Jan '18 20:11
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    Yes, clearly, in this case. Hence my question. But of course there are other issues concerning taxes. Environmental issues, societal issues. Basically how are the paid taxes used.

    Sounds like a tiresome way to live, caring so much about money, to tell you the truth. But it's not my life, so meh.
    I personally find it tiresome to have an inefficient government take my money and use it for programs designed to help politicians get re-elected.
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    09 Jan '18 20:21
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    I personally find it tiresome to have an inefficient government take my money and use it for programs designed to help politicians get re-elected.
    Well yeah, but that's a different subject.
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