Originally posted by CrowleyThe 750 referred to the batting ratings - I was talking about batting at that point. Sobers was a world class batsman for 14 years.
Uhm, I think you misread that graph slightly.
Sobers was never over 750 for all rounder rankings.
Sobers was around and above the 500 mark for 12 years, playing in 57 tests.
Kallis has been around and above the 500 mark for 6 years in 68 tests.
That equals [b]more consistent in my book, as he Kallis has been over the par score for more tests in h ...[text shortened]... he was mediocre. Kallis' career has only spanned 12 years, with 3 years in mediocrity country.[/b]
I then (clearly, I thought) referred to the bowling ratings. Here, I acknowledged that Sobers early career was relatively poor. But he then had a 10 year period of at least matching Kallis' bowling level.
There are far more Test matches nowadays. To me, consistency is over a period of time, not a period of matches. There is no reason to believe Sobers wouldn't have done just as well if he'd played more matches over that timespan.
Originally posted by CrowleyAnd don't post again that he has a better average because of more tests played, you are just looking silly.
Nice try to put a spin on the stats again there boreman, but why would you just throw away his last 2 years worth of stats?
What are you trying to prove?
Kallis has been slower than Sobers? So what?
tsk tsk tsk, you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now.
Now Crowley old chap ,the above words are yours ,
So you can clearly see that Kallis has a better average and scored more runs ,purely from playing more tests,so im not grabbing at straws
Im not throwing his last 18 tests away,just showing you that after the same amount of tests Sobers was and still will be considered the greatest all rounder.
Originally posted by boarmanKallis has been batting slower. So what?
And don't post again that he has a better average because of more tests played, you are just looking silly.
Now Crowley old chap ,the above words are yours ,
So you can clearly see that Kallis has a better average and scored more runs ,purely from playing more tests,so im not grabbing at straws
Im not throwing his last 18 tests away,just showing you ...[text shortened]... fter the same amount of tests Sobers was and still will be considered the greatest all rounder.
He has a better average = better batsman. Do you know what average means, or should I draw you a picture?
His average is climbing the older he gets, so one of these days hes going to be joining the 60+ average club, something Sobers could only dream about.
Originally posted by mtthwSorry, I was looking at the all-rounder graph, which clearly shows Sobers starting very slowly and then peaking.
The 750 referred to the batting ratings - I was talking about batting at that point. Sobers was a world class batsman for 14 years.
I then (clearly, I thought) referred to the bowling ratings. Here, I acknowledged that Sobers early career was relatively poor. But he then had a 10 year period of at least matching Kallis' bowling level.
There are far mo ...[text shortened]... elieve Sobers wouldn't have done just as well if he'd played more matches over that timespan.
Kallis graph seems much more consistent to me.
Anyway, Kallis still has at least 3 seasons of all-rounder in him and maybe a few more after that as just a specialist batsman.
If you don't agree with me now, see you in a few years, when he will have surpassed even Sobers' wildest dreams, being probably then in the top 5 runs scorers of all time, maybe in the top 3, depending on when Tendulkar stops playing and he should have at least 300 wickets by then, maybe a few more.
Oh, what a wonderful few years awaits us guys! We are seeing a legend in his prime!
Originally posted by CrowleyYes - as I said, Sobers bowling was pretty ineffective at first. But you do have to consider the scale of the graphs - once he peaked, he stayed at that peak for a long time - longer than Kallis has so far.
Sorry, I was looking at the all-rounder graph, which clearly shows Sobers starting very slowly and then peaking.
Kallis graph seems much more consistent to me.
Anyway, Kallis still has at least 3 seasons of all-rounder in him and maybe a few more after that as just a specialist batsman.
If you don't agree with me now, see you in a few years, when he wi ...[text shortened]... w more.
Oh, what a wonderful few years awaits us guys! We are seeing a legend in his prime!
As you say, Kallis is still at the top. If he keeps going for long enough then he still might match Sobers for consistency over a long period.
As for career runs - he's already got a lot more than Bradman! Presumably you're not going to claim he's better and/or more consistent? 🙂
Maybe we should continue the discussion in six years time, see what's happened.
Originally posted by mtthwDon't get me wrong - I've said it before - I won't argue too much that Sobers was a better player than Kallis.
Yes - as I said, Sobers bowling was pretty ineffective at first. But you do have to consider the scale of the graphs - once he peaked, he stayed at that peak for a long time - longer than Kallis has so far.
As you say, Kallis is still at the top. If he keeps going for long enough then he still might match Sobers for consistency over a long period.
As f ...[text shortened]... stent? 🙂
Maybe we should continue the discussion in six years time, see what's happened.
All I am definitely disputing, is people who rate any of the other great all-rounders above Kallis (there were some greats - but none as good as Kallis and Sobers), or people saying Sobers was much better than Kallis, citing things like different bowling styles, pitches and other unrelated bull-excrement to try and convince me of it.
Cricket has evolved and for the better I believe, but all the players change at the same pace. Peer review is the only comparison method we have, so we have to trust averages and strike rates top some degree.
There are stats that shows Kallis better in some regards and Sobers better in others. I'm saying Kallis and Sobers are so close now, you basically can't see light between them.
I root for Kallis - others root for Sobers.
What it comes down to now is basically a matter of opinion, as their stats are so close.
I don't think Kallis will play for 20 years. The game has changed too much and there is too much cricket played nowadays for the guys to play that long, but I think he will get close.
I don't think Kallis can ever claim to be close to Bradman, certainly I won't make that claim, but if the man is in the top 3 runs scorers of all time, that surely has to count for something, right?