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  1. Subscriberdivegeester
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    22 Jun '16 07:40
    Robbie are you a vote leave or remain?

    I know you are a strong supporter of devolution, so just wondering.
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    22 Jun '16 08:001 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Robbie are you a vote leave or remain?

    I know you are a strong supporter of devolution, so just wondering.
    Oh great and illustrious divegeester when will you realise that robbie does not believe his own propaganda?

    To tell you the truth I am against nationalism of any kind and simply often play devils advocate simply to see how far I can go. Nationalism has been to my mind a rather destructive force. What i can see happening in Scotland is, if the Brexists win the referendum it will probably trigger another independence referendum and the UK will be divided and Scotland will apply to be a member of the European union.

    I must admit that I really don't know enough about the issues nor about the E.U, to form any kind of opinion myself. I will not be voting nor have I ever voted in any election or referendum on any issue, no not since I was eighteen and eligible to vote. Scotland as a whole I think is certainly pro European.
  3. Subscriberdivegeester
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    22 Jun '16 08:133 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Oh great and illustrious divegeester when will you realise that robbie does not believe his own propaganda?

    To tell you the truth I am against nationalism of any kind and simply often play devils advocate simply to see how far I can go. Nationalism has been to my mind a rather destructive force. What i can see happening in Scotland is, if the B ...[text shortened]... nce I was eighteen and eligible to vote. Scotland as a whole I think is certainly pro European.
    What you call "propaganda" I call taking you at face value, and others sometimes call lies. But be that as it may.

    Clearly I am "leave" and only for democratic reasons; the economy and migration are all smokescreens imo. Where democratic power lies is at the core of my objection to the current EU. I'm certain the UK can forge its own relationships with markets wherever and however it wants going forward.

    But I'm curious about the Scottish popular vote you mention - to remain. So what was "independence" really about? Surely not a political rampage based on the "Bannockburn Effect"? Please tell me not. Not in the modern world?

    So anyway, I feel the UK should stay together and the the UK should leave the EU.
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    22 Jun '16 08:572 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    What you call "propaganda" I call taking you at face value, and others sometimes call lies. But be that as it may.

    Clearly I am "leave" and only for democratic reasons; the economy and migration are all smokescreens imo. Where democratic power lies is at the core of my objection to the current EU. I'm certain the UK can forge its own relationships wit ...[text shortened]... ern world?

    So anyway, I feel the UK should stay together and the the UK should leave the EU.
    As a country that has no real democratic power of its own but is subject to another your grievances with the E.U. are similar to ours with Westminster. Infact we are in an even worse position because we are ruled by a government that we did not vote for and that has literally no popular support among the electorate while being given the semblance of democracy. At least the E.U. does not pretend to be democratic.

    arguing devils advocate is not the same as a deception or a lie

    In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further.

    this is why i don't necessarily believe my own propaganda😡
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    22 Jun '16 09:08
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further.
    Acting as a "devil's advocate" is a method used to get at the truth and to analyze an issue in full. I can't remember you ever seeking any truth in any major discussions where I have engaged you. I can't remember you ever wanting to examine an issue properly or in full. All I can remember is you trying to be funny in an unpleasant and peculiarly repetitive way. You've even admitted publicly that that is all you want to do, here Thread 166701 page 270.
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    22 Jun '16 09:2110 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    Acting as a "devil's advocate" is a method used to get at the truth and to analyze an issue in full. I can't remember you ever seeking any truth in any major discussions where I have engaged you. I can't remember you ever wanting to examine an issue properly or in full. All I can remember is you trying to be funny in an unpleasant and peculiarly repetitive way. ...[text shortened]... en admitted publicly that that is all you want to do, here Thread 166701 page 270.
    In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further.

    Please note that there is no mention of truth in the definition, you have simply added it I suspect because its less intellectually challenging and easier for you to frame issues in a moral context.

    I suspect because of your Christian background you still see matters in black and white, evil and good, truth and lies. Its a particularly acute problem among religionists or in your case former religionists as you struggle to come to terms with ideas that are more complex than 'good' and 'bad'. Usually its noticeable in an inability to detach oneself from the issues under discussion. I suspect your propensity for making debate personal as you are attempting to do here is also symptomatic of this inability to detach yourself and others from debate and results in a finger pointing condemnatory approach common among religionists (or in your case former religionists) that you so admirably demonstrate on these boards day in and day out.

    I think that i have attempted to relate to you numerous times how thoroughly banal that approach is.
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    22 Jun '16 09:371 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further.

    Please note that there is no mention of truth in the definition, you have simply added it I suspec ...[text shortened]... ink that i have attempted to relate to you numerous times how thoroughly banal this approach is.
    If you want to be seen as a principled poster who can discuss moral issues, you're not going to achieve this by suddenly describing your behaviour up till now as "devil's advocacy". You will only achieve it by actually behaving as a principled poster who can discuss moral issues from now on.
  8. SubscriberFMF
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    22 Jun '16 09:37
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Clearly I am "leave" and only for democratic reasons; the economy and migration are all smokescreens imo. Where democratic power lies is at the core of my objection to the current EU. I'm certain the UK can forge its own relationships with markets wherever and however it wants going forward.
    Whether to leave the EU is not really any of my business as I do not reside in the UK and never will again. But, having said that, if I did live in the UK, I'd most likely vote to remain in the EU.

    I think the protection of the human rights of ordinary British people is more guaranteed by subscription to European values. I wouldn't trust the British political class with the stewardship or promotion of ordinary people's rights; it's bad enough as it is already with the UK government constantly fighting with the European Court Of Human Rights in order to limit or reduce the rights of its citizens.

    As for the 'democracy' issue, I see it as a red herring. I think the UK has just about one of the most undemocratic electoral systems in Europe. And what passport my political masters happen to hold as they wield power does not automatically mean they are acting in the best interests of all people with the same nationality.

    When I did live in the UK, I thought 'where democratic power lies' in domestic terms was not a 'place' populated by political operatives who were acting in my interests or what I thought were the interests of my country, whereas broadly speaking, the vision and arrangements coming out of the political mechanism of Europe seemed to be preferable.

    Maybe things have changed. I've been away fro a long time. As I said, in practical terms, it really isn't any of my business. I wouldn't have dreamed of trying to secure my right to a postal vote and then having the cheek to try to have a say on how British people handle their relationship with European countries.
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    22 Jun '16 09:405 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    If you want to be seen as a principled poster who can discuss moral issues, you're not going to achieve this by suddenly describing your behaviour up till now as "devil's advocacy". You will only achieve it by behaving as a principled and thoughtful poster who can discuss moral issues from now on.
    I don't want to be seen as a principled anything, you simply made it up that I do and again you demonstrate an inability to engage in anything beyond making matters personal and moral I suspect because its simply easier for you.
  10. SubscriberFMF
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    22 Jun '16 09:48
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I don't want to be seen as a principled anything...
    And this is the essential building block of your comedy routine. I had school friends like you when I was an adolescent. πŸ˜‰
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    22 Jun '16 10:013 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    And this is the essential building block of your comedy routine. I had school friends like you when I was an adolescent. πŸ˜‰
    This mechanism you have FMF of attempting to state that a proposer is somehow trying to be funny is not working for you, its simply a rather transparent and tawdry attempt at deflection, that you think its working for you is hilarious.

    Is it so difficult to accept that there may be some people who are different from you? that are largely unaffected by the need to be viewed as principled, or esteemed by others? Safe in what they profess and advocate, content to simply let the efficacy of their content speak for itself? Now I know it may be difficult for you to comprehend but there are people like that who are attempting to transcend their egocentricities, who have little need for being held in esteem by others but simply to try to understand themselves and others.
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    22 Jun '16 10:061 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    This mechanism you have FMF of attempting to state that a proposer is somehow trying to be funny is not working for you, its simply a rather transparent and tawdry attempt at deflection, that you think its working for you is hilarious.
    I'm just taking you at your word, robbie, when you said: "I just want to make fun of people and have people make fun of me and to talk copious amounts of dwool" when you were apologizing for when your attempted comedy had gone too far.
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    22 Jun '16 10:18
    Originally posted by FMF
    I'm just taking you at your word, robbie, when you said: "I just want to make fun of people and have people make fun of me and to talk copious amounts of dwool" when you apologizing for when your attempted comedy had gone too far.
    Yes FMF but that is not a reason to completely ignore the content of a persons posts is it? Do you think that retrospectively dragging up something from the past is working for you? look how its simply a plastic attempt at deflection and reflects rather badly on you? you don't want that do you, not from someone that thrives on being seen as principled and esteemed, surely?

    You have so far not managed to address a single reason or point but I have made and clearly you are wasting both my time and yours, but thats ok because i have a multitude of better things to be getting on with. Suffice to say it was not easy for me to demonstrate your approach, to lay it bare and relate why you habitually engage in condemnatory finger pointing with little capacity for reasoned debate beyond deflection, retrospective trolling and attempts to make every issue personal and moral simply because its easier, but someone had to say it.

    I can see you clearly now FMF, thanks for that.
  14. SubscriberFMF
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    22 Jun '16 10:25
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Yes FMF but that is not a reason to completely ignore the content of a persons posts is it? Do you think that retrospectively dragging up something from the past is working for you? look how its simply a plastic attempt at deflection and reflects rather badly on you? you don't want that do you, not from someone that thrives on being seen as principle ...[text shortened]... ause its easier, but someone had to say it.

    I can see you clearly now FMF, thanks for that.
    I can't remember ever having come across anyone - like you - who was so obviously trying to be funny ALL the time [and even admitting it], who then got so uncomfortable with being described as obviously trying to be funny ALL the time. Self-appointed comedians have simply got to come to terms with the fact that not everyone is going to think they are funny.
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    22 Jun '16 10:26
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    You have so far not managed to address a single reason or point but I have made and clearly you are wasting both my time and yours, but thats ok because i have a multitude of better things to be getting on with.
    Have you made any points about Brexit - the thread topic - that you want me to address?
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