crime and victims

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
What are the most important elements in rehabilitation? How does it work when it works?

It depends on the nature of the custodial offence: in the case of property offences and lesser crimes of violence it can be a combination of anger management, ETS course, detox treatment and housing association placement, with sex offenders it has to be SOTP courses which are followed by control orders and constant (expensively constant) monitoring by the police and social services after release. Canada's recent 70% fall in paedophile recidivism shows that supervision + rehabilitatin can work if there is the political will.

Originally posted by Amaurote
It depends on the nature of the custodial offence: in the case of property offences and lesser crimes of violence it can be a combination of anger management, ETS course, detox treatment and housing association placement, with sex offender ...[text shortened]... pervision + rehabilitatin can work if there is the political will.

When it comes to pedophiles & sex offenders. I prefer castration.

Originally posted by Canadaguy
When it comes to pedophiles & sex offenders. I prefer castration.

Which is fine as a punitive measure, but as a preventive measure doesn't work at all - if you castrate a sex offender, he'll still molest children, penetrative genital sex or no penetrative genital sex.

Originally posted by Amaurote
Which is fine as a punitive measure, but as a preventive measure doesn't work at all - if you castrate a sex offender, he'll still molest children, penetrative genital sex or no penetrative genital sex.

OK then, what about plain old capital punishment. Then they can't harm no one, plus we don't have to cover the cost of their incarceration, therapy, and monitering.

Originally posted by Canadaguy
OK then, what about plain old capital punishment. Then they can't harm no one, plus we don't have to cover the cost of their incarceration, therapy, and monitering.

Of course that is a valid point of view. If you're prepared to accept that innocent people will die through mistakes made as the inevitable miscarriages of justice roll in, and if you're also prepared to accept the death toll of the innocent young victims of paedophiles who will certainly murder to cover their initial crime (if you're going to die by execution for rape or child molestation, why not murder your victim anyway to increase the chances of escaping detection by the police?), then that is a coherent penological idea. The problem is that the criminal justice system in most countries is internally inconsistent: it tries to rehabilitate and punish simultaneously, and for the most part these two objectives do not easily co-exist.

Originally posted by Amaurote
Which is fine as a punitive measure, but as a preventive measure doesn't work at all - if you castrate a sex offender, he'll still molest children, penetrative genital sex or no penetrative genital sex.

This comment reminds me of the very nasty case of the screwdriver rapist who made the headlines in South Africa in his day. The implement gave him more satisfaction than his tool.

Originally posted by Amaurote
if you're also prepared to accept the death toll of the innocent young victims of paedophiles who will certainly murder to cover their initial crime

Suggesting that capital punishment has a hand in murder.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
This comment reminds me of the very nasty case of the screwdriver rapist who made the headlines in South Africa in his day. The implement gave him more satisfaction than his tool.

Yes, that sounds a bit like the Yorkshire Ripper over here back in the late Seventies: he raped one woman with a screwdriver, too, although he bizarrely claimed there was no sexual element in his crimes.

Originally posted by Amaurote
Of course that is a valid point of view. If you're prepared to accept that innocent people will die through mistakes made as the inevitable miscarriages of justice roll in, and if you're also prepared to accept the death toll of the inno and for the most part these two objectives do not easily co-exist.[/b]

{Of course that is a valid point of view. If you're prepared to accept that innocent people will die through mistakes made as the inevitable miscarriages of justice roll in} IF CSI has taught me anything its that technology has reduced the chances of a wrongful accusation. Todays forensics have made it nearly impossible go miss. DNA evidence never lies. If we create a national DNA bank then these offenders will be caught, and you can be sure you have the right man.

Originally posted by Canadaguy
IF CSI has taught me anything its that technology has reduced the chances of a wrongful accusation. Todays forensics have made it nearly impossible go miss. DNA evidence never lies. If we create a national DNA bank then these offenders will be caught, and you can be sure you have the right man.

DNA evidence does lie if someone misinterprets it, though - and DNA samples are contaminated at crime scenes all the time, it's almost a standard defence by guilty and innocent defendants in every court case under the sun. And again, this isn't going to stop a paedophile murdering his victim to cover his tracks, assuming he had no few remaining scruples about doing it. Most paedophiles are pretty astute when it comes to calculating and manipulating the system, so you can be sure more women and children would die if capital punishment was introduced for cases of rape and molestation.

Originally posted by Amaurote
DNA evidence does lie if someone misinterprets it, though - and DNA samples are contaminated at crime scenes all the time, it's almost a standard defence by guilty and innocent defendants in every court case under the sun. And again, this isn't going to stop a paedophile murdering his victim to cover his tracks, assuming he had no few remaining scruples a ...[text shortened]... n and children would die if capital punishment was introduced for cases of rape and molestation.

Fine if want to rehab these people, why don't you put the halfway house next door to you, and your children(assuming you have any) Hope, you can sleep well at night.

Originally posted by Canadaguy
Fine if want to rehab these people, why don't you put the halfway house next door to you, and your children(assuming you have any) Hope, you can sleep well at night.

You haven't understood my point at all. If you prefer, I could try semaphore.

The halfway house is already here. As for living next door to paedophiles, I actually work in close proximity to them - so your gibe makes very little sense at all.

Originally posted by Amaurote
Of course that is a valid point of view. If you're prepared to accept that innocent people will die through mistakes made as the inevitable miscarriages of justice roll in, and if you're also prepared to accept the death toll of the innocent young victims of paedophiles who will certainly murder to cover their initial crime (if you're going to die by exe ...[text shortened]... te and punish simultaneously, and for the most part these two objectives do not easily co-exist.

That doesn't really make sense to me. If a person has intent to murder they'll murder, regardless of the consequences. There is no death penalty here yet there is still murder.As for innocent people dying, of course it has to be a cut and dry case for execution. In todays age of forensics the chances are fairly slim of convicting the wrong guy. Slim not impossible.

And as I youth I did spent several weeks in a juvenile detention center. What a joke! I don't see how it could ever serve as a deterent to youths. Fortunately I was able to grab a brain as I got older but it had nothing to do with the experience I had in "jail".

People who commit violent crimes should not get the rights and priveliges that they get. It's like if I ground my children and send them to their room with all their toys at their disposal. What kind of punishment is that? When my kids get sent to their room all the toys get removed.

When a criminal gets sentenced to a prison term for their crime they should not have access to all the perks they get. Perks that most law abiding citizens don't get to enjoy.

Originally posted by Amaurote
You haven't understood my point at all. If you prefer, I could try semaphore.

The halfway house is already here. As for living next door to paedophiles, I actually work in close proximity to them - so your gibe makes very little sense at all.

Working in close proximity and having one live next door are two different things. And I understand your points exactly. Maybe what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't waste our time and money on these monsters, or pretending they are somthing that they are not. Burying them wheather they kill or not would definetly make me feel safer.

Originally posted by mokko
That doesn't really make sense to me. If a person has intent to murder they'll murder, regardless of the consequences. There is no death penalty here yet there is still murder.As for innocent people dying, of course it has to be a cut and d ...[text shortened]... e fairly slim of convicting the wrong guy. Slim not impossible.

Of course, but that was not my point: my point wasn't that pathological murderers wouldn't kill if they wanted to, but that criminals who would otherwise not have killed would certainly be more likely to murder their victims if the sentence for their initial offence became capital. I don't see anyone contradicting this: it's common sense.

As for juvenile detention, sure, I work in a YOI as well, they have it easy there, it's Playstation Central once you become an Enhanced inmate. Once they graduate to local or community prisons and maximum security prisons they find it much tougher.

As for DNA - it is far from unchallengable. If the people who support capital punishment have the courage and consistency to accept that innocent people will die because of the policy they propose, I have no problem with that at all.