Originally posted by Red NightLOL.
I noticed that the English footbal hooligans were particularly well behaved during the recent European Championships.
perhaps we should look more closely at the circumstances that led to this good behavior and duplicate it for future matches.
If the English "supporters" of the international soccer team keep booing their players onto the pitch, this is a distinct possibility.
Even Capello has admitted that playing away from home is better than having 70,000+ people demotivating and destroying his players' confidence. "When we play at home we don't play with a lot of confidence, so I prefer to play away from home," the England coach said.
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Originally posted by RagnorakIm not talking about anybody rushing the gates, you couldnt get to gates at hillsbourgh because of the overcrowding. Rag please read the posts by Angryboy about the lead up to what happened. The crush was in no way the result of fans rushing the gates, the crush at the turnstiles resulted from a total lack of organisation from those responsible, both leading up to the tie and during.
Anybody who tries to rush gates, or gained entry without tickets to an event in which overcrowding caused deaths WOULD have to bear some responsibility. Just because the practise is perceived to be widespread doesn't take away from that fact.
Poor security which allows people without tickets into a venue would also have to bear responsibility.
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Originally posted by sally cinnamonDrunken hoards didn't have any part of it? Zero responsibility?
Im not talking about anybody rushing the gates, you couldnt get to gates at hillsbourgh because of the overcrowding. Rag please read the posts by Angryboy about the lead up to what happened. The crush was in no way the result of fans rushing the gates, the crush at the turnstiles resulted from a total lack of organisation from those responsible, both leading up to the tie and during.
You could never expect thise families to ever let it go. But the rest of Liverpool should move on. The time for collective grief has passed. I am not saying that you should lift the embargo on the Sun. That embargo should remain in force even if they hadn´t printed what they did. It is toilet paper.
I think my friend Blademan was overly punchy in his post. I don´t think his intention was to cause distress. To be honest, it is a highly emotive subject that has no place on these forums.
I have an issue with big club arrogance. That´s my soapbox subject. I don´t like the way rules are twisted and the FA pans to the top clubs. Even the most die-hard fanatic can see it. Why do Chelsea feel they need to appeal to the FA over John Terry? Why are some clubs seemingly able to tap up players when they wish, and then complain when others do the same to them. It is that kind of hypocrisy that annoys me. A big club can unsettle players, by just having a rumour or two started in the press. But when say Real Madrid do the same it is all shock horror. It sucks.
Spurs had a huge whine about Liverpool, and yes it has derailed their season. It didn´t stop them offering inducements to a Palace 15 year old that was contracted at the time of the tapping up. At least they received fair compensation for their losses, whether we receive fair compensation will depend on a whole host of positives coming together.
I don´t like it when the big clubs complain of having too many games, and then play in a promotional game in the Middle East. These clubs have huge squads and should find some perspective. I am not enamoured over the club v country debate. Smaller clubs, and lesser clubs in the Premier lose players to internationals. Managers need to be more understanding. Although it is give and take and we could do without meaningless international friendlies. The big clubs use a raotation system, they spend shocking amounts on good, but not exceptional, players. They should be able to rest players and manage their squads. They should drop out of the League Cup and focus on bringing the FA Cup back it´s level of former importance. The Champions League should revert back to the European Cup, and only Champions and last seasons winners should play in it. Less games, and players more willing to pull on the England shirt.
I don´t think that what I ask is unreasonable. English football is all about money. Whether you have it or not. The authorities are penalising clubs like Bournemouth and Luton, seemingly driving them out of business. Yet, the big fish get away with much worse, look at the Tevez deal, and you don´t see huge points deductions. Bates at Leeds is still deemed fit to run a football club - I wonder what his former creditors think of that.
I would hope for the giants of the game to take a moral stand. Some fans of these clubs have done that. There are whispers of discontent from the old school, hardcore fan. I fear football is losing it´s soul. When I see a team like mine discounted as an irrelevance because we don´t win things, I see that as an attack on all the teams that don´t win things. We, like many other clubs, have been around for 100 years. The Premier authorities and the FA would appear content to see us not last another ten.
Maybe that is business, but I don´t like this Americanisation of one of Englands great traditions.
Originally posted by RagnorakMaybe the issue should be WHY supporters boo their own team. I think it is because they feel the players don´t feel the same passion as the supporters do. John Terry was in tears when Chelsea lost the championship league final. He wasn´t so distraught when England didn´t qualify.
LOL.
If the English "supporters" of the international soccer team keep booing their players onto the pitch, this is a distinct possibility.
Even Capello has admitted that playing away from home is better than having 70,000+ people demotivating and destroying his players' confidence. "When we play at home we don't play with a lot of confidence, so I prefer to play away from home," the England coach said.
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Fans were annoyed that Barry had a good game when Lampard was injured, yet next game Lampard took his place. We lost, Lamps was ineffectual and hey people were rightly upset.
I don´t think people were booeing the whole team. I think that the situation will change as long as Capello doesn´t make the same mistakes as his predecesors.
Originally posted by HopsterI mentioned a number of times in this thread, why England fans boo their own team.
Maybe the issue should be WHY supporters boo their own team. I think it is because they feel the players don´t feel the same passion as the supporters do. John Terry was in tears when Chelsea lost the championship league final. He wasn´t so distraught when England didn´t qualify.
Fans were annoyed that Barry had a good game when Lampard was injured, yet n ...[text shortened]... the situation will change as long as Capello doesn´t make the same mistakes as his predecesors.
The tabloid media hypes up the players and the team. The fans accept all this hype, and expect their team to just roll over other teams. Of course, this isn't reality.
So, at half time against Andorra at 0-0, the English fans felt that it wasn't good enough and booed their little hearts out. Of course, instead of feeling aggrieved and demotivating their players, they should have realised that against an obstinate team of part-timers, intent on defending, their best chance was in the second half when the part-timers were tired. See Liverpool in the FA cup last season as another example.
"Unrealistic expectations" is how it could probably be summed up.
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Originally posted by sally cinnamonI intended to ask you, personally, if you felt that drunken hoards of people had any responsibility in the matter or if they are wholly blameless.
Why dont you read the subsequent reports, then when you find the paragraph blaming "drunken hoards", hightlight it and bring it to my attention.
Originally posted by HopsterPeople were climbing the gates to avoid the crush that was happening at the turnstiles. The crush that was caused by the west yorkshire police ignoring the protocol that they had been told to follow.
Blademan, being an eye witness saw people climbing over the gates to gain free entry. Such a quantity of people were scaling the gates that the errant police officer saw it as a safety risk.
Originally posted by sally cinnamonI wasn't referring specifically to hillsborough. I was just responding to your comment...
Im not talking about anybody rushing the gates, you couldnt get to gates at hillsbourgh because of the overcrowding. Rag please read the posts by Angryboy about the lead up to what happened. The crush was in no way the result of fans rushing the gates, the crush at the turnstiles resulted from a total lack of organisation from those responsible, both leading up to the tie and during.
"People turn up to big matches without match tickets and try and gain entry to the ground. This went on before the 15th of April 1989 and it still goes on in 2008. Look at the mass exodus of England fans to Germany at the last world cup. These supporters traveled with no tickets, probably drank their weight in alcohol while they were over there, and a good few would have tried to gain access to the matches without an offical ticket. Does that mean that if by some tragic turn of events 96 of them were to be crushed to death that they would be responsible in some way?"
My answer to your scenario was that yes, some responsibility would have to be placed on the necks of those who gained entry without tickets. But, I also pointed out that culpability would have to be spread out for something tragic to happen.
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Originally posted by sally cinnamonYeah right.
People were climbing the gates to avoid the crush that was happening at the turnstiles. The crush that was caused by the west yorkshire police ignoring the protocol that they had been told to follow.
I see the FA have let Chelsea off. Refs decisions not valid for big clubs. That sends a message to players for some decent hounding of the officials.
SALLY,
The old iron gates were the first line of defence, the outside perimeter!!! They were not inside to the turnstiles. So to get to the turnstiles, you had to scale the fence, or swim the river and then climb up a very steep bank, lined with nettles and brambles and then get over another wall!!! come fishing with me on that very same strectch.
I'll be very pleased to show you the lay out. NEW OR OLD!!!
But as always in last few threads both you and angry are spouting your abuse. Oh well , how sad ,never mind.