Originally posted by ivanhoeBTW Ivanhoe, you still are avoiding answering my simple question. You are playing tricks. Are you trying to let us see that christians practice trickery? Then again it was Paul who said "I deceived you by guile."
You are playing the same games and performing the same tricks, that you used in your discussion with bbarr.
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
Originally posted by Feivel
BTW Ivanhoe, you still are avoiding answering my simple question. You are playing tricks. Are you trying to let us see that christians practice trickery? Then again it was Paul who said "I deceived you by guile."
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
You are still playing the same tricks. I told you I cannot answer your question about the 10 commandments ,the Christians and the Church and how they obey these commandments. How in the world do you expect me to do so ? If anyone can do it, well he's very welcome. Apart from the fact that you invite me to show how beautiful and morally good people Christians are, you have stated that you can give a lot of examples of the contrary. Now, what's the point Feivel?
You want to show to your audience that religious people are no good, that they're bastards and worse and if you cannot get that across in normal diccussions you start being patronising, authoritarian and abusive. Now it seems to me that you are crossing some lines there.
If you want to treat people the way you do if you can't have it your way, you just go right ahead but not with me. I demand respect. If you are not willing or able to give me that, than that's the end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.
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Originally posted by FeivelThis is demagogy.
BTW Ivanhoe, you still are avoiding answering my simple question. You are playing tricks. Are you trying to let us see that christians practice trickery? Then again it was Paul who said "I deceived you by guile."
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
I can add my part in such a useless and insulting discussion by saying that you should remember that Paul was a Jew. Now isn't that insinuating. What a wonderful discussion we would be having ... I looked it up in the dictionary : "demagogue" Leader of the populace; political agitator appealing to desires or prejudices of the mob. Thats what you are doing and in doing so you are ruining the good atmosphere on RHP and that really p***** me off.
Originally posted by ivanhoeJust as I asked. You number the commandments 1-10 as they usually appear. After you do that you can post how the church obeys numbers 1-10. Is that to difficult for you? You want respect? Stop avoiding the question. Plain and simple. Why should anyone respect someone who is obviously not deserving of it? Answer the question and prove that I am wrong and you are deserving. Ask yourself that famous christian question..."what would Jesus do." Do you think he would have given an answer no matter how bad it might have looked or do you think he would avoid the issue like you have?
I told you I cannot answer your question about the 10 commandments ,the Christians and the Church and how they obey these commandments. How in the world do you expect me to do so ?
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
Originally posted by ivanhoeIt is an unfortunate fact of christianity that reason is thrown out the window. As soon as you answer my question about the ten commandments (anyone that wants to should feel free to answer) we can discuss Paul if you'd like. You can post any evidence you have that Paul was a Jew and I will gladly prove otherwise from the very proof you present. Even if you believe the new testament, Jesus did NOT create a new religion but Paul did. As a matter of fact I will ask you to read the gospels and see for yourself what Jesus said you need to do to be saved. I will then ask you to read the book of Acts and see what Paul said. Now who do you follow? What does the church teach? Does God suffer from MPD? Don't even try to debate your precious bible with me because you can never get around it's own inconsistencies.
I can add my part in such a useless and insulting discussion by saying that you should remember that Paul was a Jew. .
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
Originally posted by FeivelHypothetically, suppose Ivanhoe listed the commandments as you request, and additionally goes on to expound upon how the church and the Christian population at large attempts to abide by these commandments. Suppose further that you can provide overwhelming evidence for the claim that the church, and a large number of Christians have consistently failed to abide by these commandments. What would this show, exactly? You would have succeeded in showing that the church is a corrupt organization and that many who profess to be Christians are actually failing to be proper Christians. So what? It seems like the obvious response a Christian could make when confronted with your supposed argument would be that although many fail to be proper Christians, their failure does not undermine the Christian faith in general. Just as the the fact that the majority of humans are, to a degree, irrational does not show that rationality is something that ought not be pursued, so the failure of professed Christians to live up to their ideals does not show that those ideals themselves ought not be pursued. Your supposed argument in this case is a non-sequitur, and amounts to an ad hominem attack against Christians. But I very well may have interpreted you incorrectly in this matter. I'm not sure why you are so adamant that he answer this question you propose. On my interpretation, your question is actually quite irrelevant to the issue of the justification of the Christian faith. Have I interpreted you incorrectly, and if so, could you be more clear?
It is an unfortunate fact of christianity that reason is thrown out the window. As soon as you answer my question about the ten commandments (anyone that wants to should feel free to answer) we can discuss Paul if you'd like. You can post any evidence you have that Paul was a Jew and I will gladly prove otherwise from the very proof you present. Even if you ...[text shortened]... can never get around it's own inconsistencies.
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
Originally posted by FeivelIn a later post you invite anyone to reply. I would first like to express agreement with Mr. bbarr, that individual Christians' (and the "church's" ) disobedience of God's commands in no way undermines the validity of the Christian faith. I will go a step further, and say that our disobedience in fact UPHOLDS the internal consistency ("internal logic" was the term, I believe, used in this discussion at some point) of the Christian faith. I can give you a list of Bible references making quite clear that even the believer remains far, far, far from perfect while here on Earth. You demonstrate a degree of familiarity with the Bible, so I will assume you don't need me to give you that list. Let me know if my assumption is astray.
Explain please. And while your at it, take into account the ten commandments and explain how they are logically broken although religion (in this case christianity) supposedly obeys God's every whim?
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
The whole point of Christianity is NOT that Christians are good, or that we're better than non-Christians, or that we stop sinning. This is quite clear in the Bible (and in life! ). The message of the Bible is plain: confess Christ as Savior and Lord, repent and be baptized. I have done these things, and as God has proven Himself trustworthy to me, I have confidence in my future. Now, am I perfect? LOL. Am I even good? Again I laugh, because if I don't I'll cry. I'm wretched and foul. Selfish, full of pride, lazy. Etc. Etc. Etc. But if you compared me to who I was four years ago you'd find I've been remade into a much, much better person. This is a process, and by God's grace alone I have gradually become a man who holds a job, supports a family, obeys the law, tells the truth, forgives others, and a host of other things I never on my own had the courage to do. And as time passes He'll grant me repentence from other sins. And when Time passes away, then He'll welcome me to Himself and remove all my imperfection. This is the Christian message; this is the message of the Bible. The fact that I fail, fall short of the mark, sin, does nothing to contradict the Gospel.
Are there people better than me who aren't Christians? I'd bet on it. But are they perfect? No. And you don't get to Heaven without being perfect. That's why in another post somewhere, I don't remember which thread, I remarked that I admit dependence on God. Being decent, let alone perfect, is beyond my own ability.
Four years ago I was a terrible, rotten husband. Now my wife says I'm a blessing. I take NO credit for that: Glory be to God!
This post has become something I hadn't intended. I wouldn't be surprised (nor could I really blame you) if you haven't read this far. I get carried away sometimes because I just can't begin to tell you how grateful I am to God that He would make me (me! Even me, a sinner) into a blessing to anyone.
All that aside, I've encountered theories that Paul's Gospel was different from Jesus'. Lay it on me. Make your case. I consider the burden of proof to be on you, after nearly 2000 years of Paul's and Christ's having been considered to be in agreement.
One final note: I do not stand by everything said by all other Christians on RHP. I also do not stand by everything taught by any particular Christian denomination, theologian, or individual not on RHP.
Originally posted by bbarrBennett,
Hypothetically, suppose Ivanhoe listed the commandments as you request, and additionally goes on to expound upon how the church and the Christian population at large attempts to abide by these commandments. Suppose further that you can provide overwhelming evidence for the claim that the church, and a large number of Christians have consistently failed to abi ...[text shortened]... he Christian faith. Have I interpreted you incorrectly, and if so, could you be more clear?
ivanhoe originally asked why revealed religion is taboo for Freethinkers. Ivanhoe also refuses to listen to any logical argument (as do most christians). his answering the question (or any christian for that matter) by listing the commandments and how the church obeys them SIDE-BY-SIDE, will show ivanhoe the answer he seeks and also stop his foolish pro-christian posts (or at least quiet them down a bit0.
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
Originally posted by huntingbearYour answer is appreciated but it is not a list which is what I asked for. Now you claim that Paul has been in line with Jesus for nearly 2000 years? What denomination teaches such an outright falsehood? You really shouldn't restrict your reading to "biased" authors only. For example, answer the question I raised above about what Jesus would say to do in order to be saved versus what Paul said. Funny how they are two different answers. lets take that one step further shall we. For the argument, I will be the young lawyer who Jesus told "follow the commandments"and when I told him i did, he says "take everything you have and give to the poor." I walk away stunned cause I will not do it. 50 years later (after Jesus death) I attend a meeting where Paul speaks. He says to be saved "believe in Jesus." i don't understand, I heard different from the man himself now Paul comes along and changes a dead mans words? By accepting Paul's words I would be following Paul NOT Jesus. Now you going to tell me that Paul and Jesus agreed on this subject? 2000 years of church taught agreement and 2000 years of lies.
In a later post you invite anyone to reply. I would first like to express agreement with Mr. bbarr, that individual Christians' (and the "church's" ) disobedience of God's commands in no way undermines the validity of the Christian faith. I will go a step further, and say that our disobedience in fact UPHOLDS the internal consistency ("internal log ...[text shortened]... verything taught by any particular Christian denomination, theologian, or individual not on RHP.
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
Originally posted by bbarrBennett,
Hypothetically, suppose Ivanhoe listed the commandments as you request, and additionally goes on to expound upon how the church and the Christian population at large attempts to abide by these commandments. Suppose further that you can provide overwhelming evidence for the claim that the church, and a large number of Christians have consistently failed to abi ...[text shortened]... he Christian faith. Have I interpreted you incorrectly, and if so, could you be more clear?
It would also serve to but a fatal wound to his claim that there is "logic" in revealed religion.
Amici Sumus
Feivel the Freethinker
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Originally posted by FeivelInner Logic, the same logic you can find in a work of art, for instance a novel or a good movie. That kind of logic is the logic I mean, not the "formal logic " used in science.
Bennett,
It would also serve to but a fatal wound to his claim that there is "logic" in revealed religion.
Amici Sumus
Feivel the Freethinker
The Inner Logic is meant to show us something.
The Formal Logic is meant to prove something.
For example, answer the question I raised above about what Jesus would say to do in order to be saved versus what Paul said. Funny how they are two different answers. lets take that one step further shall we. For the argument, I will be the young lawyer who Jesus told "follow the commandments"and when I told him i did, he says "take everything you have and give to the poor." I walk away st ...[text shortened]... church taught agreement and 2000 years of lies.Originally posted by Feivel
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker[/b]
Your answer is appreciated but it is not a list which is what I asked for.
I thought I made it clear just why such a list is impossible. I refuse to list the ten commandments one by one and then demonstrate how Christians have followed them all. I could not do so with any honesty. Try as we might, we fail. It's that simple. I can't answer the question because it's a trick question and no one who understands the message of the Bible would possibly claim that Christians are CAPABLE of obeying God with 100% success, let alone that we have done so. What exactly do you want here?
Now you claim that Paul has been in line with Jesus for nearly 2000 years?
I didn't claim that. I claimed that they have been considered in agreement for nearly 2000 years, which is why I believed the burden of proof was on you. But now I don't really care on whom the burden lies. I'll just have to get down to bu'ness myself. So, I will claim now that Paul and Jesus present the same Gospel.
What denomination teaches such an outright falsehood?
Well, I haven't heard of a denomination that didn't view Paul's and Jesus' gospel as the same. Then again (as I've said) I don't really care about denominations.
You really shouldn't restrict your reading to "biased" authors only.
Biased authors? LOL. Show me an unbiased one! It would take more faith than all religious people in the world combined possess to believe any human being could be unbiased. Silly. The best one can do is to read a biased author on this side, then a biased author on that side, and so forth. This I have done, do, and will continue to do. You?
For example, answer the question I raised above about what Jesus would say to do in order to be saved versus what Paul said
I'm going to take my time with this one, because now I think we're getting somewhere. It's already past my bedtime and I've got work tomorrow. I want to prepare a response worthy of the challenge you've given me. Don't worry, that lawyer you mentioned will figure into it. I'll just give you one hint to whet your appetite: there is a difference between taking a text literally and literalistically. I'll define those terms, as I mean them, with my full response. As an added bonus to repay your patience, I'll also explain why James and Paul don't contradict each other, and why Paul isn't actually claiming to be a liar in the verse you quote (2 Cor. 12:16 -- incidentally, is that the KJV you're using?)
I want to thank you for your apparrent willingness to give me a hearing. I am not out to convert you or anyone else. I only want to show that one can be a Christian without abandoning reason. What I can't understand is why so often I hear complaints about how irrational and unreasonable Christians are . . . but when I try to reason with these plaintiffs I get nothing but ad hominem attacks and nyeah- na- nyeah- na- boo- boos. If you are, or anyone else is genuinely prepared to listen with an open mind, then I'm grateful. Now quickly I must sprint through the other threads and then get to bed.
I thought I made it clear just why such a list is impossible. I refuse to list the ten commandments one by one and then demonstrate how Christians have followed them all. I could not do so with any honesty.
Incorrect. The list would be possible to create. The answer (for christians) would be negative.
So, I will claim now that Paul and Jesus present the same Gospel.
And you are entirely wrong. I will give you an approach to take. Go through all Paul's supposed Pharasic arguments and show me how each one is pharasic in origin and i will show you otherwise. Go through each of Paul's claiming to be a Jew (Paul's NOT Luke's) and I will show you evidence (within and outside) of the bible showing otherwise. There are many discrepancies with Paul, too many to even begin to list. If Paul is suspect, unfortunately 70% of the new testament becomes suspect also.
Biased authors? LOL. Show me an unbiased one!
You knew EXACTLY what I meant.
I'm going to take my time with this one
Take all the time you want because a logical and reasonable answer will not ever be forthcoming.
Don't worry, that lawyer you mentioned will figure into it
Remember that I am that hypothetical lawyer so no symantical mumbo jumbo is going to work.
I'll also explain why James and Paul don't contradict each other
Thats a crock. Please don't give us the line that Paul and James are arguing the same from different approaches.
why Paul isn't actually claiming to be a liar in the verse you quote (2 Cor. 12:16 -- incidentally, is that the KJV you're using?)
Decieved you by guile has only one meaning. Incidentally there are other places where Paul claims telling a lie for the sake of God is not only allowable but encouraged. Yes for english translation I tend to use the King James but there is not a citation that I haven't looked up in the Hebrew (Tanach) or Aramaic, Greek (new testament).
I only want to show that one can be a Christian without abandoning reason
Impossible argument to win. Even Josh Mcdowell himself stopped trying to make that claim although he continued with his apologetics BECAUSE faith is powerful (and I will add not necessarily based on truth).
why so often I hear complaints about how irrational and unreasonable Christians are . . . but when I try to reason with these plaintiffs I get nothing but ad hominem attacks and nyeah- na- nyeah- na- boo- boos.
All I can say is that I can understand why some answer with ad hominem attacks on christianity. Why, i can't say. I can tell you that people are propably getting fed up with hearing things like "those are not real christians." Sorry but that excuse don't cut it with anyone.
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
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There are many discrepancies with Paul, too many to even begin to list. If Paul is suspect, unfortunately 70% of the new testament becomes suspect also.I tried to edit my above post but the server wouldn't allow it (or I am just to plain dumb this AM) so allow me to clarify that statement. Paul's writings are the earliest of the new testament therefore the ENTIRE new testament is "INFLUENCED" in one way or another by him. Therfore not only is the 70% Paul wrote suspect (if Paul is suspect) but the ENTIRE new testament must be rexamined in that light. Unfortunately, the new testament does not stand up to that type of scrutiny based on logic and reason. Based on faith it still stands but ignoring reason isn't exactly a good christian thing to do. After all who gave christian's brains? Considering how christians love God so much (incidentally, Jesus himself says if they don't follow the commandments they are liars), why do they reject God's gift of a brain in favor of faith and create god in their image [or shall I say in the "church fathers" image)?
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker