Go back
Mars Probe question

Mars Probe question

General

Rhymester
and RedHotTed

Red Hot Rebel Clan

Joined
06 Apr 01
Moves
235718
Clock
19 Dec 03
2 edits
Vote Up
Vote Down

The Mars Probe might or might not have separated from the main vessel.. scientists are aparently going to do some tests to find out if the whole thing now weighs 70kg less which would confirm separation.

So what tests would enable them to weigh something in space?

I have a feeling that the bathroom scales approach isn't going to work 😉

Andrew

P

Joined
23 Feb 03
Moves
83654
Clock
19 Dec 03
Vote Up
Vote Down

Might have to weight for the R Chicken to return for that one 😉

ZN

Stockholm

Joined
29 Aug 03
Moves
87420
Clock
19 Dec 03
Vote Up
Vote Down

Just a theory: if you could brake in a controlled way, then I guess a vessel with a greater mass would have less retardation compared to a vessel with a smaller mass. Maybe you could count something out this way.

Or maybe not. Merry christmas to you all anyway.

j
Top Gun

Angels 20

Joined
27 Aug 03
Moves
10670
Clock
19 Dec 03
Vote Up
Vote Down

I'm working at the Open University at the moment, and the Beagle page on the OU website has this to say:

Initial confirmation that the separation manoeuvre has been successful is expected at 10.40 GMT, when the European Space Operations Centre (ESOC) in Darmstadt, Germany, should receive X-band telemetry data from Mars Express. Further information from Mars Express and Beagle 2 telemetry confirming separation should be returned by 11.10 GMT. In addition, it is hoped that the orbiter's onboard Visual Monitoring Camera (VMC) will provide pictures showing the lander moving slowly away. The images are expected to be available within hours of the separation event.



Incidentally, the seperation was confirmed at 1110 this morning.

j
Top Gun

Angels 20

Joined
27 Aug 03
Moves
10670
Clock
19 Dec 03
Vote Up
Vote Down

The link if you want it by the way:

http://beagle2.open.ac.uk/

turtlex
Picard Is My Captain

United States

Joined
21 Feb 03
Moves
244486
Clock
19 Dec 03
Vote Up
Vote Down

😀

It will be a great Christmas gift to Space-Geeks (respectfully, as I am one) if the touchdown is successful on Christmas Day.

turtlex
Picard Is My Captain

United States

Joined
21 Feb 03
Moves
244486
Clock
26 Dec 03
Vote Up
Vote Down

Not so good news so far for us SpaceNuts - Still no word from Beagle2 after a couple of tries to sync the radio and establish the signal. Still some chances to go, but so far - its not looking great.

On the bright side - the "mothership" (Mars Express) - of Beagle2 was successfully put into orbit with plans to do two years of study.

N

Joined
14 Nov 03
Moves
2629
Clock
26 Dec 03
2 edits
Vote Up
Vote Down

>>> So what tests would enable them to weigh something in space?

Wouldn 't the probe go into a different orbit having different mass ?

g
Wayward Soul

Your Blackened Sky

Joined
12 Mar 02
Moves
15128
Clock
26 Dec 03
Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by Nohup
>>> So what tests would enable them to weigh something in space?

Wouldn 't the probe go into a different orbit having different mass ?
to weigh things in space, you kinda -erm- wobble them...tis hard to explain, but you attach the thing you're gonna weigh to 2 metal bndy things then hold it to one side a set distance. the quicker it comes to a stop, the lighter (or heaiver, i forget...) the object is. only problem in, how they're gonna do that with the probe...

N

Joined
14 Nov 03
Moves
2629
Clock
26 Dec 03
4 edits
Vote Up
Vote Down

>>> So what tests would enable them to weigh something in space?

I surfed it up !
Here is how it works :
http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Smass.htm
It s worth a look !
Weight , mass, gravitational mass and inertial mass,
it s all explained rather neatly.
Cowboysite of course ! Sometimes I hate america but whenever i start
to explore their scientific achievements I fall in love again 🙂

But my question still stands :
Would the probe go into a different orbit depending on its weight, mass, gravitational mass, inertial mass ?

I hate to answer my own questions 🙁

pradtf

VeggieChess

Joined
03 Jun 02
Moves
7483
Clock
27 Dec 03
3 edits
Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by Nohup
But my question still stands :
Would the probe go into a different orbit depending on its weight, mass, gravitational mass, inertial mass ?

I hate to answer my own questions 🙁

well the centripetal acceleration is given by the formula

a = v^2 / r (where v is the velocity and r is the radius of orbit)

(and what happens when an astronaut very gently walks off an orbiting spacecraft, except in some movies?)

so that's all i'm going to say about it and leave the rest to RHNASA 🙄

in friendship,
prad

Rhymester
and RedHotTed

Red Hot Rebel Clan

Joined
06 Apr 01
Moves
235718
Clock
27 Dec 03
Vote Up
Vote Down

Well thanks for all that... but it's kind of looking a bit academic... the Beagle is Stranded! Or might even be a lump of scrap metal by now... 🙁


Andrew

pradtf

VeggieChess

Joined
03 Jun 02
Moves
7483
Clock
27 Dec 03
2 edits
Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by Rhymester
Well thanks for all that... but it's kind of looking a bit academic... the Beagle is Stranded! Or might even be a lump of scrap metal by now... 🙁


Andrew
i haven't followed things so i don't know the details of what is happening, but the 'skylab chair' (as in the link hohup provided) is not something that can be used here ingenious as it is! however, depending on how the separation took place, there may be an orbital discrepancy. here's how:

when dealing with orbits, you need to remember that to maintain a lower orbit (which results in a stronger gravitational attraction because you are closer to the planet), you need to travel at a greater speed (otherwise you will crash into the planet). if you are at a higher orbit (which results in a weaker gravitational pull because you are further from the planet), you need to be at a slower speed (otherwise you will fly off into space).

all this results in the rather paradoxical situation where you need to slow down in order to speed up (by slowing down, you 'fall' into a lower orbit where you end up travelling faster) and speed up to slow down (by speeding up you break into a higher orbit where you must travel more slowly).

now if the separation caused any change in velocity of either body which is may be likely depending on the direction it occurred in, the 2 bodies would end up in different orbits that may be detectable. the problem is if the separation takes place very gently, it would not affect the speed of either body a great deal and therefore detection would be very difficult at these distances.

do they not have a monitoring system onboard to detect these things - or have i been watching too much star trek?

in friendship,
prad

i

Felicific Forest

Joined
15 Dec 02
Moves
49429
Clock
27 Dec 03
Vote Up
Vote Down


It is very exciting ..... they now are looking for the thingy ..... with a very expensive special space camera ... it's even better than a Hitchcock movie ...... Dial B for Beagle ....... 😀

I wanna bet they'll find the thingy in the end ..... after a long and exciting search ...... 😉

N

Joined
14 Nov 03
Moves
2629
Clock
27 Dec 03
5 edits
Vote Up
Vote Down

Originally posted by pradtf
do they not have a monitoring system onboard to detect these things - or have i been watching too much star trek?

in friendship,
prad[/b]
I am sure they do have such monitoring system !
AND i bet you have been watching too much star trek Prad ! :p

I am still looking for a way to deduce if 'separation' occured in case such monitoring system failed and in case it cannot be concluded by any earthly optical means revealing a change in form. Imagine the Beagle was incorporated into the probe (maybe it was?). And imagine we had no camera to spot the Thingie on the surface. Imagine nobody was watching on separation time and it was not monitored in any way - would we be able to deduce in any way that the Beagle left Probe's Belly ?
I guess Zipdrive's answer is correct and we could deduce mass ( inertia ) by controlled (measurable) braking ?
And I guess the same amount of braking would result in a different orbit as well, depending on mass ?

Cookies help us deliver our Services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn More.