Originally posted by turtlexThanks for the compliment! :-)
StrayJay - Great thoughts and a good train to follow.
I'm not sure about how to reply. I am a big believer in indivual thoughts and rights. As, I think, Trek was too (Dare I quote - "the needs of the many, out weigh the needs of the f ...[text shortened]... Picard - Is not StarFleet better off with him as an individual?
Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't voluntarily want to be entered into the Collective. Like you, I value my individuality. Picard started me thinking, though: I think it was in "First Contact" where he said that it would be better to kill a fellow-crewman than to have him/her be assimilated. Had I been a member of Starfleet, I think I would have objected to that: death always remains an option, and considering all drones on the ST-shows initially showed an urge to be re-attached to the Collective, I think being assimilated can't be all bad. I think my curiosity of what it would be like inside (Hmmm, I wanted to write 'Matrix' :-) Collective would be stronger than my urge to remain an individual. But I do value my individuality and to paraphrase Mifune from the Matrix: "They can assimilate me, but I'll give 'em hell before they do."
I think Voyager's gain of Seven was considered a loss to the Collective; they went through quite some trouble to get her back --even though they already had her memories. The same thing applies to Picard. In both cases the Collective even tried to persuade them to come back. The reason why they were not simply re-assimilated has never been clear to me.
In (one of) the first episode(s) of Voyager where they encounter the Borg, Janeway reads what fellow-captains have written about the Borg. One of them referred to the Borg as (close to?) 'pure evil'. That's also something I don't understand: the Borg have never shown to be evil. A-moral (which is different to being immoral!) in a Machiavellian way, yes; evil, no. The Borg assimilated other species to better themselves, but species that were not considered valuable were left alone. Considering that, I think calling the Borg 'pure evil' is a very emotional and incorrect judgement, based on fear and unworthy of a Starfleet captain. :-)
Yes, Starfleet is better off with Picard than without him, but I don't think that's something the Borg need to consider. It's survival of the fittest, and the Borg's way of assimilating the best of other species is a very efficient way of making sure you survive. If it wasn't clear already, I do appreciate the Borg's way of surviving.
Excellent points, all.
I think the "pure evil" remark is because the Borg wants to assimilate at any costs. Its the "at any costs" part that make them an evil entity. They will wipe out anyone that stands in their way. They are for themselves and themselves alone - with no regard for others. I guess, in the Trek universe, that values different races, etc. this could be considered evil.
Who knows also, what might then too be behind them wanting to assimilate everyone. One world of love, seems unlikely - because if they did assimilate everyone, what would be left? Are the Borg about the conquest? What is the sense in assimilating children? They can't have the same knowledge or memories that adults have (yet Seven was "captured" as a young child).
"Offspring" is another great episode. Very moving and had wide ranging effects on disertations of Data being "human" or sentient. As did the episodes that involved Data and Lore. Both ends of the spectrum with regards to "human"-like.
I found a quote from "Measure of a Man" - Picard's big defense scene on Data's behalf - he's arguing the three points of sentience (Intelligence - Self-awareness - Consciousness):
PICARD: (yelling) What is he? (meaning Data)
MADDOX: (yelling) A machine!
PICARD: Is he... are you sure?
MADDOX: Yes!
PICARD: You see he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, so what if he meets the third, consciousness, in even the smallest degree? What is he then? I don't know, do you? (to Riker) Do you? (to judge) Do you? (pause) Well that's the question you have to answer. Your honor, the courtroom is a crucible. In it we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a pure product, the truth. For all time. Now sooner or later, this man, or others like him will succeed in replicating Commander Data. And the decision you reach here today will determine how we will regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of a people we are, what he is destined to be. It will reach far beyond this courtroom and this one android. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of personal liberty and freedom, expanding them for some, savagely curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to condemn him and all who come after him to servitude and slavery? Your honor, Star fleet was founded to seek out new life. Well THERE IT SITS! Waiting..."
That is one of the best scenes in the series.
Do any of you recall "Chain Of Command" - Where Picard is captured and tortured - required to indicate how many lights he can see? This is an amazing example of humanity, courage and and will over torture.
Star Trek TNG never shied away from all kinds of topics.
But, StrayJay, back to point - are the Borg's way of survival the best way? Could we not get that same information by those other races, without killing countless souls to do so?
Originally posted by sundown316You list many of my favorite episodes, too. "All Good Things..." was a great way to wrap up the series.
My favorite episodes of ST:TNG were: "The Sins of the Father","Redemption","Unification","The Best of Both Worlds","All Good Things...". My favorite characters: Picard and Q. Least favorite:Riker(a Kirk wannabe). Picard or Kirk ...[text shortened]... lf in the Fold". Don't bothering arguing,resistance is futile!😉
I think my least favorite character, if I have one, would probably be Beverly Crusher, but only because she was so under utilized.
Most folks hated Wesley, but I thought he ended up okay. Deana, who had a horrible start - "I feel...." - ended up a pretty cool character.
Originally posted by turtlexIsn't it weird, though, that when they (they being the ST crew with Picard being an old man) go back to the "anti-time rift" in space, it's bigger than when they left --and started-- it??
You list many of my favorite episodes, too. "All Good Things..." was a great way to wrap up the series.
Wasn't it supposed to grow "into the past"???
"" Q" underused especialy no films. Data was spock 2 can you remember at troys aranged wedding his comment "please keep on bickering i find it most fasinating". As for kirk v pricard v sisko v janeway, the Voyager series was more original in its thinking, but that is not to say the others are poor as ive the 4 series and look at them regular. ( I have ignored Enterprise and archer as a poor substitute.) But M Barret should be given some praise for being the commputer voice, the nurse , troys mother and the wife of gene.
Originally posted by stoker
"" Q" underused especialy no films. Data was spock 2 can you remember at troys aranged wedding his comment "please keep on bickering i find it most fasinating". As for kirk v pricard v sisko v janeway, the Voyager series was more original in its thinking, but that is not to say the others are poor as ive the 4 series and look at them regular. ( I have i ...[text shortened]... given some praise for being the commputer voice, the nurse , troys mother and the wife of gene.
I'm not sure what the considerations were with John DeLancie and the movies. I know that I've read that they (ie - TPTB at Paramount) wanted a lot of action for the films. "Q" doesn't really cause a lot of action. I would have liked to have seen him in the movies though, as well.
I guess my whole problem with Janeway was that with her, the Prime Directive was always a secondary thing. I mean, half the time, it wasn't even considered. Now I know they're lost and however many light years from home, but would you completely disregard your training and the motto of your StarFleet?!?
I never was much of a Sisko fan. Too stoic. I did like the whole Emissary angle but don't feel they ever followed it through to what it could have been.
I can't stand Enterprise. I don't know why - probably Bakula.
Originally posted by StrayJayI've never seen any Star Trek, but I recognize this as a good post.
Thanks for the compliment! :-)
Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't voluntarily want to be entered into the Collective. Like you, I value my individuality. Picard started me thinking, though: I think it was in "First Contact" where he said that it would be better to kill a fellow-crewman than to have him/her be assimilated. Had I been a member of Starfl ...[text shortened]... ng sure you survive. If it wasn't clear already, I do appreciate the Borg's way of surviving.
Originally posted by royalchickenroyalchicken - I hope you can find some episodes on cable (I think SpikeTV is showing TNG now) or rent or buy the DVDs.
I'll try to.
I think you'll enjoy it. Heck, I think given a chance - anyone will. You don't have to be a Trekker or Trekkie to get something out of it.
You see, thats what I like at TNG, and Star Trek in general.
You can come at it from different angles, and still get something from it.
If you're looking for some cool Sci-Fi, TNG does it.
If you're looking for some good writing, TNG.
Good acting, well.... alot of great actors are on TNG (wish I could say they were all good).
If you're looking for something deeper, Gene Roddenberry made sure that was there too.
I guess we all bring something different when we watch, but the truth is, as a series, Star Trek was very progressive.
TNG was more subtle than TOS. No offense, but Patrick Stewart is a better actor than William Shatner, which allowed for more indepth plots and character development with TNG.
The overall theme, at least somewhat, of TNG - was inclusive family. And acceptence.
IDIC - a Roddenberry coined Vulcanism for Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
What a great lesson.
Originally posted by turtlexit's in canada too. this is a superb thread you've got going here turtlex!
I caught Redemption I and II this weekend. I checked the SpikeTV website and they broadcast TNG every weeknight (M-F) at 8pm.
Thats for the US folks with cable or satelitte.
i've been meaning to contribute to this thread, but haven't thought of anything to be sufficiently worthy of the fine posts here. i have particularly enjoyed imvegan, turtlex and strayjay's comments.
i like TNG the best and Picard is 'my captain' too - but there are many occasions in which Janeway and Voyager are his equal. (I have to admit though that the security on voyager has to be probably the worst of any show of anytime!)
the Borg have never shown to be evil.
i think i'll start with this comment made by strayjay. i think you have made some excellent insights into the Borg that both TNG and Voyager bring out. one is the loss of individuality which as you have argued is not necessarily a bad thing at all - what you lose, may not be that much of a loss, and what you gain may be far greater than the petty ideas of 'freewill' that may be illusory in the first place. the problem of course is that the Borg just go ahead and assimilate without asking permission, which really isn't particularly respectful. the episodes with Hugh (particularly Descent) demonstrated some of this since it showed that Borgs with individuality were not necessarily any better for the universe than those without.
Seven of Nine's journey to find herself was a fascinating one (even though they destroyed her character with all that mushy stuff towards the end of voyager). It wasn't so much that she was becoming an individual, but that she was getting there with her values intact - many of which came from the collective. In the Omega Factor, the Borg quest for perfection and spirituality is beautifully depicted.
I think there is much of value that the Borg offer as does the federation - there may be much to glean from the Best of Both These Worlds 😉
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by pradtfhey prad - thanks for joining in!
it's in canada too. this is a superb thread you've got going here turtlex!
i've been meaning to contribute to this thread, but haven't thought of anything to be sufficiently worthy of the fine posts here. i have particularly enjoyed i ...[text shortened]... lean from the Best of Both These Worlds 😉
in friendship,
prad
Any thoughts what so ever are worthy, my friend.
With regards to Janeway - yes a good Captain, but to me, the disregarding of the Prime Directive so frequently, that was hard for me to get past.
On the Borg - To me, yes - Its the fact that the Borg "take" individuals for their knowledge. That is a violent act. Anything against ones own will.
I enjoyed both Hugh and Seven of Nine.
The Borg's life and philosphy has never really been explained in depth and I think that's a pity - Omega Factor not withstanding - there is so much more we want to know about them. That is a tribute to the writers. I think only the Klingons come close to being a race we really got introduced to and grew to value their history ( where as they started as "bad guys" and ended up as "good guys" ). They were presented to us as Bad, in the begining.
I agree that there is lots we could learn from the Borg, but them being the Borg means that we are not even given that chance, because the fact that they act as they do - we'd be sucked into the collective!
Please continue to post, prad.
Originally posted by kirksey957Without a doubt John DeLancie is an excellent actor. I agree wholeheartedly.
One character that I particularly enjoyed for his acting and the questions of his identity and purpose was the Q entity. To me he represented sort of the dark side of God. Any thoughts?
I think Q was presented as sort of an anti-God sort of character. From the beginning of TNG he had omnipotent powers, but used them for his own amusement.
He put Picard and the crew on "trial" and played with their heads quite a bit throughout the series, because he liked to. He got a kick out of Picard.
Some of what Q did, testing Picard, his humanity, was deep and provoking but he also just liked to bug Picard and press his buttons.
I liked that about the character, but think it took away from his "god-like" persona.
Also, what I always thought was sort of weird and bizarre - what was with that galley of miscreants in "Encounter at Farpoint"? Would someone with Q's powers and amusements at headgames have a galley of ... what were they? I always felt that was sort of odd.
Q calls Picard and the Crew "barbarians"... yet his galley of people watching the trial seems... less that stellar.
What I also like about Q and his introduction is that it hold Picard up as an Ideal human. He represents the Human Race, at least to Q and as presented in "Encounter".
Great thoughts... anyone else?