21 Dec 03
At the last count Pope John Paul II has canonised 473 people for sainthood, more than the combined total of all the previous 264 popes combined. He is now about to add Charles I (the last Emperor of Austria-Hungary) to the staggering total. The Emperor of Austria-Hungary (one of the Central powers in WWI), a saint? I don't think so.
I'm sure most people here are aware of my low opinion of religion, and are probably not too concerned about my opinion of the antiquated notion of sainthood in the first place. But if I was a religious person, I would be absolutely scandalized at the Pope's sainthood production line. More saints than all the other popes combined? Where is he dredging them up from? Doesn't this make a mockery of the whole process if it's easier to gain sainthood than it is to make the New Orleans Saints?
The only thing that I can figure is that since the Catholic church hasn't had much going for it in quite a while, he figured he needed to churn out a few hundred saints to prop up morale. But what do I know?...
21 Dec 03
Originally posted by rwingettThe world could use more saints thats for sure.
At the last count Pope John Paul II has canonised 473 people for sainthood, more than the combined total of all the previous 264 popes combined. He is now about to add Charles I (the last Emperor of Austria-Hungary) to the staggering total. The Emperor of Austria-Hungary (one of the Central powers in WWI), a saint? I don't think so.
I'm sure most peop ...[text shortened]... e figured he needed to churn out a few hundred saints to prop up morale. But what do I know?...
What they accomplished we can do as well.
The choice is ours.
Big G.
21 Dec 03
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingetti wonder if there is a possibility that he is trying to make up for a backlog of potential people who may have been overlooked in the past by other popes. i guess a lot depends on who writes the history books and when. still, like you, we may wonder what the criteria was for the emperor (and possibly some others):
The Emperor of Austria-Hungary (one of the Central powers in WWI), a saint? I don't think so.
...More saints than all the other popes combined? Where is he dredging them up from?
this is from a conversation on the criteria issue (from http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/september97/teresa_9-26.html):
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Is there a written set of criteria for canonization? If so, what is the criteria?
Father Michael Mannion responds:
There is a written set of criteria for canonization, the process by which the Church formally recognizes a deceased person as a saint. Remember: it is God who makes saints. The Church's canonization process merely ratifies and proclaims what God has done.
The process formally begins at least five years after the person in question is deceased. The local bishop appoints officials to collect data, documentation, and writings by and about the person. All the testimony and documentation is then sent to the Vatican's Congregation for the Causes of Sainthood. In Rome, a relator oversees the writing of a biography. Eight theologians and a promoter of the faith then judge the cause. If the result is a favorable vote by the members of the congregation and the Pope approves, the candidate is declared "Venerable." For Beatification, one miracle, due to the intercession of the candidate and occurring after his or her death, is required. Medical experts and a panel of theologians must authenticate the miracle.
Finally, for canonization, another miracle must be authenticated - this one having occurred after the beatification. The pope can waive the five-year waiting period as well as the requirement of a miracle. Most important, the entire process is rooted in the Church's belief that the individual in question practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace. A saint is a model and an intercessor whose holiness is well recognized and whose life is a source of inspiration to all believers.
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apparently the earlier criteria involved martyrdom (http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/020103/rel_020103071.shtml):
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Sainthood criteria shift over time
The Washington Post
ROME -- Early Christians reserved sainthood for martyrs. Christianity was outlawed during more than three centuries of Roman rule. Christians were frequently executed for practicing their faith.
Such bloody qualification for sainthood faded under Emperor Constantine, who declared Christianity the empire's official religion. In the 4th century, the standard for sainthood shifted to holiness. "Virtue was an heroic act," said Msgr. Robert Sarno. "Saints were people to be imitated."
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in friendship,
prad
21 Dec 03
1 edit
Originally posted by biggthat was one of the ideas behind all this as you can see from the second quote in the last post.
What they accomplished we can do as well.
Big G.
also, if you follow the contents of the first post you will see that later they write:
"Mother Teresa herself believed that everyone could do what she did - that God's grace is available to us all to love one another, especially the poorest of the poor, deeply and sincerely. There are thousands of Mother Teresas all over our globe: they are mothers and fathers, single and married, laborers and office workers, priests, sisters, brothers, who in their own way each day love and care for others by the grace of God. Mother Teresa knew this. She met them on her travels and in Calcutta. She spoke of them. She encouraged and loved them."
in friendship,
prad
21 Dec 03
Originally posted by rwingettYou sound like a christian that is a little disenfranchised. Otherwise why would you even care?🙄
At the last count Pope John Paul II has canonised 473 people for sainthood, more than the combined total of all the previous 264 popes combined. He is now about to add Charles I (the last Emperor of Austria-Hungary) to the staggering total. The Emperor of Austria-Hungary (one of the Central powers in WWI), a saint? I don't think so.
I'm sure most peop ...[text shortened]... e figured he needed to churn out a few hundred saints to prop up morale. But what do I know?...
21 Dec 03
Originally posted by pradtfThat is absurd. If it is "god" who makes saints, then the process by which saints are chosen can not be changed. Man could not change it, and god would have no need to change it as he would have chosen the proper criteria in the first place. If the criteria for sainthood has changed due to the political situation vis-a-vis the Roman Empire, then it seems obvious that it is mankind who is in the business of making saints, and that god had nothing to do with the process (which should come as no surprise in the first place).
i wonder if there is a possibility that he is trying to make up for a backlog of potential people who may have been overlooked in the past by other popes. i guess a lot depends on who writes the history books and when. still, like you, we may wonder what the criteria was for the emperor (and possibly some others):
this is from a conversation on the criteri ...[text shortened]... Robert Sarno. "Saints were people to be imitated."
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in friendship,
prad
21 Dec 03
Originally posted by rapalla7I don't care. I have no interest in how the Catholics choose their saints, except to point out how ridiculous it is. But I should think that the faithful would be a little concerned about the glut of saints on the market.
You sound like a christian that is a little disenfranchised. Otherwise why would you even care?🙄
21 Dec 03
Originally posted by rwingettwell i don't know how the system works - beyond what was covered in high school (an anglican one at that), but isn't the pope 'elected'?
That is absurd. If it is "god" who makes saints, then the process by which saints are chosen can not be changed.
in friendship,
prad
21 Dec 03
3 edits
Originally posted by rapalla7i'm only asking, mike. just recalling bits and pieces from history class - didn't pay much attention back then, i guess.
I guess that maybe the appropriate thing to do would be to post about things that you know about.
Just a thought.
Mike
do you know for sure (rwingett said he 'thought) is the pope elected? or is there some other system that is used? who's stan misail?
in friendship,
prad
21 Dec 03
Originally posted by pradtfThe pope is elected. The saints are voted on, which can take many years (saints that is).
i'm only asking, mike. just recalling bits and pieces from history class - didn't pay much attention back then, i guess.
do you know for sure (rwingett said he 'thought) is the pope elected? or is there some other system that is used? who's stan misail?
in friendship,
prad
I am a catholic. Born and raised. However: am currently slightly upset about the church. I am upset about the way that organized religion (what ever type) is portrayed and exploited. Religion should be there to comfort and to re-enforce some type of value to life, by example. This is not occuring. People are killing in the name of their god.
21 Dec 03
2 edits
Pradft,
I was not referring to you, I was referring to the leader of the closeminded.
It took more patience to try to explain something that you are not sure of, and not conjecture. It shows intelligence to look up something that is not in your realm and try to explain it to someone who said, "I don't care". It is obviousl he just meant it to be inflammatory and has no other relevance.
In friendship
Mike
21 Dec 03
Originally posted by rwingettAs someone who was raised Catholic, but renounced the Church 22 years ago for personal reasons, I feel that I can weigh in on your observation. First, it doesn't make a "hill of beans" how many Saints the Pope creates because these people are long dead and it isn't going to change their position whether they are in Heaven or Hell...or purgatory (yeah, right). Second, 99.9% of Catholics don't know these prospective saints from their great-great Aunt Gertrude nor will they care. The Pope, although a decent person, is human just as you and I, so he craps and puts his pants on one leg at a time as you and I do, therefore it won't change anything unless one's hobby is collecting Saints memorabilia, and I don't mean the New Orleans Saints, in which case that person needs to get a life. And yes, it does make a mockery of religion for those who follow it just to be trendy or so the neighbors can see them going to church on Sunday, but for true believers in Christ it should not amount to anything but a drop of ridiculousness in the bucket of lunacy. True Christian Catholics are not deceived by this action; they know that the Pope is going to do what he wishes, and for most of them that's OK. 🙄
At the last count Pope John Paul II has canonised 473 people for sainthood, more than the combined total of all the previous 264 popes combined. He is now about to add Charles I (the last Emperor of Austria-Hungary) to the staggering total. The Emperor of Austria-Hungary (one of the Central powers in WWI), a saint? I don't think so.
I'm sure most peop ...[text shortened]... e figured he needed to churn out a few hundred saints to prop up morale. But what do I know?...