Originally posted by zeeblebotI didn't say it was a legal issue strictly speaking, I said it was the kind of issue that legal reasoning trains you to deal with - whether evidence should be kept confidential or be publically available.
it's not a legal/confidentiality issue ... it's a security issue ...
if it were a critical security issue, or they were paid, or there were a lot more of them, we might reasonably expect the mods to publish methods and results ... since it's not critical, and because they are volunteers, not paid, and because there are so few of them, it's reason ...[text shortened]... er hours for them, and look how long it takes for them to produce results now ...
pow! 🙂 ...
I'm not remotely interested in the specifics of how the mods analyse. But THEY have said the best evidence of cheating is a high percentage of matching up to engine moves. There are other people here who are capable of doing a version of this kind of analysis. It doesn't have to be the exact same analysis (in fact it's BETTER if it's completely independent), and therefore we don't need to see the Game Mods methods.
All that's been asked here is to point us to a game of Exy's where cheating was found. Other people can then do their OWN tests on that game or those games. If those other people don't find evidence of cheating then the controversy will continue. But if they DO find evidence of cheating, it takes the heat out of this thread.
I really don't understand what you mean by calling this a 'security' issue. But in the paragraphs above I just utilised the kind of legal reasoning I'm talking about - separating out what shouldn't be made public (the mods analytical methods) from what can be made public without harming their methods (here is a game where Exy was caught cheating).
It's the same principle as when the police play a taped conversation in court. They don't explain where they hid the bug. But they don't get away with just saying "we heard the tape, and it says this" either.
If anyone wants to argue that ID'ing a game WILL harm the Mods methods, then go ahead. But both no1 and I have now repeatedly said we can't conceive that ID'ing a game will hinder the Mods, and I haven't seen anyone come with an indication of why we are wrong (as opposed to mere assertion)
Originally posted by zeeblebotThere'll be an endpoint to the "why?" when there's actually some attempt at an ANSWER. Do you not understand that?
there's no endpoint to the "why? why? why?" line of argument ... three-year-olds do the same, but it's instinctual with them ... with y'all it just seems to be a tactic ...
Originally posted by orfeo(attempts were made
There'll be an endpoint to the "why?" when there's actually some attempt at an ANSWER. Do you not understand that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_disclosure
etc. etc. etc.
)
i can understand why the mods would not want to point to any specific game ... but cannot disclose that here. 🙂
Originally posted by zeeblebotWhat, now you're suggesting YOUR arguments are confidential?
(attempts were made
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_disclosure
etc. etc. etc.
)
i can understand why the mods would not want to point to any specific game ... but cannot disclose that here. 🙂
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard.
And those threads completely miss the point! I'm not arguing there should be no security, I'm arguing over WHAT should be secure and what should NOT be secure. You're only displaying your own lack of capacity to think about the critical issue in the argument.
Originally posted by orfeo(mmph! mmph!)
What, now you're suggesting YOUR arguments are confidential?
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard.
And those threads completely miss the point! I'm not arguing there should be no security, I'm arguing over WHAT should be secure and what should NOT be secure. You're only displaying your own lack of capacity to think about the critical issue in the argument.
Originally posted by zeeblebotThese articles are talking about security vulnerabilities. I don't see how that applies here. As I see it, disclosing a security vulnerability in this case would be something like saying "we don't use engine P to check games". Nobody has asked the game mods to disclose that kind of information.
(attempts were made
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_disclosure
etc. etc. etc.
)
i can understand why the mods would not want to point to any specific game ... but cannot disclose that here. 🙂
suppose we entered into a long discussion about how to go about it.
first, it would expose the process to unwanted scrutiny. second, i'd have to charge you my billing rate. third, it would take WAAAYY too many hours to bring no1m up to speed, considering his degree and experience is in law, and not a related field.
and fourth, if it hit the mark, the mods would delete it anyway.
Originally posted by zeeblebotI give up on this conversation on the grounds that you do NOT even understand what we are talking about.
the articles are talking about security vulnerabilities [censored][censored][censored].
see?
My parting words: read Nordlys' post on this page about 20 times and see if you can understand it.
Originally posted by orfeoactually, i thought you posted it, not nordlys ... and i think you still don't understand ...
I give up on this conversation on the grounds that you do NOT even understand what we are talking about.
My parting words: read Nordlys' post on this page about 20 times and see if you can understand it.
I have been following this thread and cannot for the life of me understand why nobody seems to have picked up on Gatecrashers clues as to what's going on.
A player can play 1,000 games and match up less than 70% in them all. That doesn't mean he isn't using an engine.
You just have to know how to look at the games.
OK one tiny scenario (of many): Surely some of you have played games where you are in a clear losing position and your opponent makes a move and you think 'what's the point in that' he is in such a strong position why not just get to the endgame?
When I play a game and suddenly come up against a 'nothing' move (as opposed to a waiting/poor move) alarm bells ring. I have no experience of playing engines, (my son has one) but many, many years of playing humans and beleive I can spot the more obvious engine moves.
Incidentally I've had some of my best games against Exy and never thought he was an engine, so if it turns out I'm wrong (I'm only talking about my games with him) then I'm talking rubbish.
