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Originally posted by FeivelFeivel,
What you cited here Genesis 18:1-11 (Bereishis) is a portion from the Torah reading called Parashas Vayeira. The proper way to divide the verses would be to quote verse 1-21 although the entire Parash runs from 18:1 through till the end of c ...[text shortened]... far cry from your trinity theory wouldn't you say?
Feivel
You haven't adressed the fact that Abraham sees THREE and greets ONE. That's the core of the issue.
.... and he clearly adresses the three as "the Lord", more than once.
How come ?
Originally posted by ivanhoeRead what I posted. I haven't talked about why he saw three men? Wow...I heard of selective hearing but NEVER selective reading 🙂
Feivel,
You haven't adressed the fact that Abraham sees THREE and greets ONE. That's the core of the issue.
.... and he clearly adresses the three as "the Lord", more than once.
How come ?
Feivel
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Originally posted by FeivelYou do NOT adress the fact that Abraham sees THREE and greets ONE. He adresses these three as "the Lord".
Read what I posted. I haven't talked about why he saw three men? Wow...I heard of selective hearing but NEVER selective reading 🙂
Feivel
Why does he address these three angels, three "functions" of the Lord (well, this is coming close to "persons", isn't it Feivel) as ONE ...... why are THREE "functions" adressed as ONE ....... and on top of that these three "functions" are adressed as "the Lord" ?
Originally posted by ivanhoeGod sent three different angels
You do NOT adress the fact that Abraham sees THREE and greets ONE. He adresses these three as "the Lord".
Why does he address these three angels, three "functions" of the Lord (well, this is coming close to "persons", isn't it Feivel) as ONE ...... why are THREE "functions" adressed as ONE ?
What is this talking about? You can question whatever you want but I posted the Jewish viewpoint. If you don't like it or don't agree go find Rashi's body and dig it up so you can argue with him. If you find the Jewish view is incorrect in your eyes it is because your brain has apparently fogged over with the mindless drivel from the church. Now why are you focusing on something as trivial as a greeting? Have you (or anyone) never used the royal "we"? Your stubborness is going to get you (within the next few days) the same PMs and postings from your christian friends that you got a few months ago. They will tell you that your circular arguing is doing NOTHING but making all christians look foolish. Now if you want to discuss what I posted I am sure I can find more information for you 🙂
Feivel
I think you are a real jerk to post your personal (and irrational) beliefs on this site! GEEZ, we're just here to have fun and play chess!
arrakis
P.S. I also flame stupid people whose irrational beliefs go the other way - you know, people like rwingett, who cannot live a normal life because of his hatred for people like yourself.
Originally posted by arrakisSee what I mean Ivanhoe 🙂
I think you are a real jerk to post your personal (and irrational) beliefs on this site! GEEZ, we're just here to have fun and play chess!
arrakis
P.S. I also flame stupid people whose irrational beliefs go the other way - you know, people like rwingett, who cannot live a normal life because of his hatred for people like yourself.
Feivel
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Originally posted by FeivelFeivel: "Now why are you focusing on something as trivial as a greeting? "
[b]God sent three different angels
What is this talking about? You can question whatever you want but I posted the Jewish viewpoint. If you don't like it or don't agree go find Rashi's body and dig it up so you can argue with him. ...[text shortened]... posted I am sure I can find more information for you 🙂
Feivel[/b]
No Feivel, it is certainly not trivial. Abraham continues adressing the three "men" as "the Lord". Sometimes the plural is used in the text sometimes the singular to refer to the three "men".
Feivel: "Have you (or anyone) never used the royal "we"?
The notion of the "pluralis majestatis" and the understanding of Kingship as we know it today did NOT exist in those old biblical days, certainly not in the times of Abraham. You are applying a rather recent notion on biblical events or ways of saying things. I cannot accept such reasoning.
Feivel: "Your stubborness is going to get you (within the next few days) the same PMs and postings from your christian friends that you got a few months ago. They will tell you that your circular arguing is doing NOTHING but making all christians look foolish."
What are you talking about ? Prophecies, Feivel ? ... looool ....
.... by the way. You always come to a point in debating Christians were you will state that they make all Christians, or Christianity, look foolish. It seems to me that this is the whole idea behind your discussions. It always keeps popping up in your posts.
Feivel: " Now if you want to discuss what I posted I am sure I can find more information for you 🙂 "
Please do.
Originally posted by ivanhoeNo Feivel, It is certainly not trivial. Abraham continues addressing the three "men" as "the Lord". Sometimes the plural is used in the text sometimes the singular to refer to the three "men".
Feivel: "Now why are you focusing on something as trivial as a greeting? "
No Feivel, It is certainly not trivial. Abraham continues adressing the three "men" as "the Lord". Sometimes the plural is used in the text sometimes the singular to refer to the three "men".
Feivel: "Have you (or anyone) never used the royal "we"?
The notion of ...[text shortened]... iscuss what I posted I am sure I can find more information for you 🙂 "
Please do.
If there was anything of substance in the use of the greeting you can be assured it would be in Jewish literature...Alas it is not so you are harping on a non-essential point. As far as the text using singular at times and plural at times, I suppose that is true as far as the English translation and whatever your native tongue translation is too. However i ask - no - I BEG you to show me how the Hebrew text uses plural and singular in these verses. You are fighting a losing cause here Ivanhoe. Wouldn't it be wise to cut your looses and regroup. Study if you really want to learn more then you can try again.
The notion of the "pluralis majestatis" and the understanding of Kingship as we know it today did NOT exist in those old biblical days, certainly not in the times of Abraham.
What you write about it being a fairly modern term is correct but if you think that you know Hebrew linguistics better than I do or better than people that spoke Hebrew is a totally false and conceited ego. I thought pride was a sin?
.... by the way. You always come to a point in debating Christians were you will state that they make all Christians, or Christianity, look foolish. It seems to me that this is the whole idea behind your discussions.
Did you ever hear the saying that begins with the words "If the shoe fits..."
Please do.
I can look up some more information for you from allot of Jewish websites but that will have to wait till after the Sabbath. Even though i am not observant (obviously cause I am posting here right now) I still respect that they are. But I really would like to know why the sudden change? Are you really interested or are you just placating me or trying to look better in the eyes of other members here?
Feivel
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Originally posted by FeivelFeivel: "If there was anything of substance in the use of the greeting you can be assured it would be in Jewish literature..."
[b]No Feivel, It is certainly not trivial. Abraham continues addressing the three "men" as "the Lord". Sometimes the plural is used in the text sometimes the singular to refer to the three "men".
If there was anything of subs ...[text shortened]... trying to look better in the eyes of other members here?
Feivel[/b]
As I've pointed out it is not just about the greeting, but I understand what you're trying to say: You haven't got the faintest idea.
Feivel: "However i ask - no - I BEG you to show me how the Hebrew text uses plural and singular in these verses. "
You're the expert, so it must be interesting for you to investigate this. I'm sure you already did this and you've come to the conclusion you still haven't the faintest idea what to do with this issue.
Feivel: "You are fighting a losing cause here Ivanhoe. Wouldn't it be wise to cut your looses and regroup. Study if you really want to learn more then you can try again."
Every chessplayer knows the tactics of psychological warfare. Sadly enough it has nothing to do with providing sound reasoning.
Feivel: "What you write about it being a fairly modern term is correct ...... "
Thank you Feivel ...
Feivel: " ... but if you think that you know Hebrew linguistics better than I do or better than people that spoke Hebrew is a totally false and conceited ego. I thought pride was a sin?"
Feivel, I always looked upon you as my rolemodel when it comes to humbleness, benevolence, complaisance, truthfulness and straightforwardness.
.... and yes Feivel pride is a sin ...
Feivel: "Did you ever hear the saying that begins with the words "If the shoe fits..."
Yes ...... If the shoe fits you spit out the red herring ..... 😉
Feivel: "I can look up some more information for you from allot of Jewish websites but that will have to wait till after the Sabbath. Even though i am not observant (obviously cause I am posting here right now) I still respect that they are. But I really would like to know why the sudden change? Are you really interested or are you just placating me or trying to look better in the eyes of other members here?
Yes, that must be it .... I mean about really being interested. Of course I am placating you .... 😉 Are you doubting this ?
Have a nice Sabbath and I hope you have a chance to get a good rest. I'm looking forward to reading your findings. See ya ! 🙂
Originally posted by skeeterand that gets a rec
Does any one else agree that this thread should be in the "debates forum"
Ooops, its a Prince Feivel thread, so the resident mod is riding shotgun, inbetween being on some witch hunt for us posters who, heaven forbid, might be considering a missed apostrophe. 😵
skeeter
Originally posted by skeeter
Does any one else agree that this thread should be in the "debates forum"
Ooops, its a Prince Feivel thread, so the resident mod is riding shotgun, inbetween being on some witch hunt for us posters who, heaven forbid, might be considering a missed apostrophe. 😵
skeeter
I agree.
It is a debate, so it should be in the debates forum.
Originally posted by ivanhoeAs promised - check out these links...anything more specific just ask and I will see what I can find.
Feivel: "If there was anything of substance in the use of the greeting you can be assured it would be in Jewish literature..."
As I've pointed out it is not just about the greeting, but I understand what you're trying to say: You haven't got the faintest idea.
Feivel: "However i ask - no - I BEG you to show me how the Hebrew text uses plural and ...[text shortened]... ve a chance to get a good rest. I'm looking forward to reading your findings. See ya ! 🙂
http://www.koshertorah.com/
http://www.thinkjewish.com/
http://www.torah.org/
http://www.beingjewish.com/
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/
http://www.kabbalah.info/
http://www.breslov.org/
http://www.ohr.org.il/
http://www.chabad.org/
http://www.613.org/
Feivel