Originally posted by ivanhoeDon't you think this is a real stretch of the imagination?
God revealed Himself as the Holy Trinity. He has always been that way, but the revelation took some time .... 🙂
Another quote: Genesis 18, 1-3 :
Gen.18
[1] And the LORD (!! IvanH) appeared unto him (Abraham. IvanH) in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
[2] And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three (! ...[text shortened]... Abraham greets one, the "Lord" and sees three .... The Holy Trinity in the Old Testament !
I mean, if you had never heard of the notion of the Trinity,
are you telling me that reading and meditating on this passage
would lead you to realize that God really had a 3-in-1 nature?
Of course not. Someone had to give you that idea first, and then
you can go back, pick out the verses that support it, and ignore
those that don't. Much like a successful numerologist.
Cribs
Originally posted by ivanhoeIt is there plain as day in the Hebrew for all to see.
Feivel: "A more proper english translation of Genesis 1:1 would be - In the beginning of god's creating the heavens and the earth."
I like that translation !
By the way Cribs. I made an edit. Please read it.
Feivel
Originally posted by CribsDon't forget the letter "J" 🙂
From what little I know of Hebrew, I don't see how anybody can
take a literal view of an English translation of the Bible. The
languages are so different that a thought that is expressed literally
in Hebrew could not possibly have a literal English translation
that can also be interpreted literally. How many literal readers
of the Bible know that class ...[text shortened]... al interpretion of a modern
English translation is very hard to justify in my opinion.
Cribs
Feivel
Originally posted by Cribs
That's what I thought, too. Maybe some other Christians can
weigh in on this matter.
Cribs
Jews are monotheïstic and Christians are equally monotheïstic. God, being eternally the same, revealed Himself as the Holy trinity. This is what Christians believe. Judaïsm however does not except Jesus as the savior, and the do not accept Him as the Son of God, let alone as God Himself.
The Holy Trinity is ONE God in three persons. According to Christian teachings the God of abraham IS the Holy Trinity. The quotes I gave from Genesis 18, 1-3 are VERY remarkable and indeed enlightening in this context !
Originally posted by Cribs
Don't you think this is a real stretch of the imagination?
I mean, if you had never heard of the notion of the Trinity,
are you telling me that reading and meditating on this passage
would lead you to realize that God really had a 3-in-1 nature?
Of course not. Someone had to give you that idea first, and then
you can go back, pick out the verses that support it, and ignore
those that don't. Much like a successful numerologist.
Cribs
Do you have a different interpretation of these quotes ? Feel free to explain why Abraham greets ONE , my Lord, and sees THREE.
Originally posted by ivanhoeNot to get into a pissing contest (although I can sense your itching to):
Jews are monotheïstic and Christians are equally monotheïstic. God, being eternally the same, revealed Himself as the Holy trinity. This is what Christians believe. Judaïsm however does not except Jesus as the savior, and the do not accept Him as the Son of God, let alone as God Himself.
The Holy Trinity is ONE God in three persons. According to Christ ...[text shortened]... tes I gave from Genesis 18, 1-3 are VERY remarkable and indeed enlightening in this context !
Monotheistic is what the Jews are...ONE god...ONE person.
christians are Monotheistic...ONE god...THREE persons
One statement is false 🙂
Feivel
Originally posted by ivanhoeLet me zoom in on the issue I'm curious about.
Jews are monotheïstic and Christians are equally monotheïstic. God, being eternally the same, revealed Himself as the Holy trinity. This is what Christians believe. Judaïsm however does not except Jesus as the savior, and the do not accept Him as the Son of God, let alone as God Himself.
The Holy Trinity is ONE God in three persons. According to Christ ...[text shortened]... tes I gave from Genesis 18, 1-3 are VERY remarkable and indeed enlightening in this context !
I claimed the Holy Spirit was a New Testament phenomenon.
You said that was wrong, and the evidence you gave was
a quote from Genesis.
Now if that quote from Genesis really shows that the Holy Spirit
existed then, are you claiming that all Jewish theologians are
just too dumb to realize that?
Cribs
2 edits
Originally posted by CribsPretty much that is it in a nutshell. Christianity claims they can read, interpret and understand Jewish writing and thoughts better than Jews themselves. kinda ironic when you consider the teachings of jesus wouldn't you agree?
Let me zoom in on the issue I'm curious about.
I claimed the Holy Spirit was a New Testament phenomenon.
You said that was wrong, and the evidence you gave was
a quote from Genesis.
Now if that quote from Genesis really shows that ...[text shortened]... ll Jewish theologians are
just too dumb to realize that?
Cribs
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Matthew 23:2-3
Seems to me jesus said do what they say not what they do? Do you go to synagogue? Do you keep the Mosiac law? They say all those things and more (incidentally they do them also)
Feivel
1 edit
Originally posted by ivanhoeI've also read the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but I don't
Do you have a different interpretation of these quotes ? Feel free to explain why Abraham greets ONE , my Lord, and sees THREE.
think that every verse of that says something profound about
the nature of the creator of the universe. You are the one
claiming that the Bible is God's Word, not me. So the burden
of proof is on you to explain it, not on me.
Unless of course you want to explain why my interpretation that
God has two heads, since Zaphod does, is wrong.
Cribs
Originally posted by Cribs
Let me zoom in on the issue I'm curious about.
I claimed the Holy Spirit was a New Testament phenomenon.
You said that was wrong, and the evidence you gave was
a quote from Genesis.
Now if that quote from Genesis really shows that the Holy Spirit
existed then, are you claiming that all Jewish theologians are
just too dumb to realize that?
Cribs
No, they must have other interpretations or they simply choose to ignore it. I have accepted the Christian view as the Truth, they haven't.
I'll give you some more quotes from the Old Testament that point in the direction of the Triune God:
Psalm 33:6 refers to both the word (the Son) and the breath (the Spirit):
"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." KJV
Psalm 147 also expresses the creative power of God by this tripartite image of Creator, word and wind:
"17] He casteth forth his ice like morsels: who can stand before his cold?
[18] He sendeth out his word(the son. IvanH.) , and melteth them: he causeth his wind (Holy Spirit. IvanH.) to blow, and the waters flow "
(Psalm 147:17-18).
1 edit
Originally posted by ivanhoeThis is just a nice way of saying "They are too dumb to know
No, they must have other interpretations or they simply choose to ignore it. I have accepted the Christian view as the Truth, they haven't.
what the verse means." Otherwise, you would admit that you
could be wrong about it.
But you don't. You know that your interpretaion is correct, and
so any other interpretation or non-interpretation is inferior.
Cribs
Originally posted by ivanhoeAgain, as in your first example, this is totally a stretch. It's like going
I'll give you some more quotes from the Old Testament that point in the direction of the Triune God:
Psalm 33:6 refers to both the word (the Son) and the breath (the Spirit):
"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." KJV
Psalm 147 also expresses the creative power of God by this ...[text shortened]... causeth his wind (Holy Spirit. IvanH.) to blow, and the waters flow "
(Psalm 147:17-18).
through the writings of Nostradamus and picking out verses that could
possibly be interpreted as true prophecies. You have to know what you
are looking for, otherwise you'll never find those hidden meanings.
Cribs
Originally posted by ivanhoeNo, they must have other interpretations or they simply choose to ignore it.
No, they must have other interpretations or they simply choose to ignore it. I have accepted the Christian view as the Truth, they haven't.
I'll give you some more quotes from the Old Testament that point in the direction of the Triune God:
Psalm 33:6 refers to both the word (the Son) and the breath (the Spirit):
"By the word of the LORD wer ...[text shortened]... causeth his wind (Holy Spirit. IvanH.) to blow, and the waters flow "
(Psalm 147:17-18).
That is entirely correct. There are other Jewish interpretations that Jews choose to hide from public view so they may keep their knowledge secret and take over the word.
Psalm 33:6 refers to both the word (the Son) and the breath (the Spirit):
Please realize that the words in parenthases are your interpretation. in Hebrew the word of god is the word of god. Where does son come from? Is it imaginary? Breath you define as spirit when in Hebrew it is Ruach which means what might i ask you oh great Hebrew scholar 🙂
"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." KJV
Where exactly is there a mention of a son or a seperate spirit?
Psalm 147 also expresses the creative power of God by this tripartite image of Creator, word and wind:
"17] He casteth forth his ice like morsels: who can stand before his cold?
[18] He sendeth out his word(the son. IvanH.) , and melteth them: he causeth his wind (Holy Spirit. IvanH.) to blow, and the waters flow "
(Psalm 147:17-18).
Again why do you place an unjewish and christian interpretation of son on the word "word"? Also, it is interesting how you chose this verse. Do you know what was the reason god's breath caused the waters to flow? Do you know what the waters this verse speaks of are? I shall give you a hint. Look up a transliteration of the Hebrew (assuming you can't read Hebrew) of Genesis 1:1-2 and tell me what exactly are the Mayim and HaShamayim translated as. Then you should be able to understand the verse you cited without the extra editing you had to do. If you still can't understand ask and I can try to explain.
Feivel
1 edit
Here are more proper translations of the verses ivanhoe cited. These translations are direct from the Hebrew text. In general there is fairly good agreement with the KJV but the Hebrew is far more accurate and without a doubt more trustworthy than any translation. Also I will refrain from using any numerical citation other than the English because most here are familiar with the English numbering while the Hebrew is slightly different in places.
[b]By the word of the lord were the heavens made: and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Psalms 33:6 (Tehillim)
He casts forth his ice like morsels: who can stand before his cold? He sends out his word and melts them: he causes his wind to blow: they run as water.
Psalms 147:17-18 (Tehillim)
Feivel
Originally posted by Feivel
[b]No, they must have other interpretations or they simply choose to ignore it.
That is entirely correct. There are other Jewish interpretations that Jews choose to hide from public view so they may keep their knowledge secret and take over the word.
Psalm 33:6 refers to both the word (the Son) and the breath (the Spirit):
Please realize t ...[text shortened]... ra editing you had to do. If you still can't understand ask and I can try to explain.
Feivel[/b]
Feivel,
If you have something to bring forward, please do, but please without giving me all sorts of tasks to perform.