Originally posted by Tryfon Gavriel Where are all these amazing FM's that people seem to speak of as if blitz chess is a totally seperate game to Classical time controls?!
what? just take a look at the ICC's list of titled players sorted by blitz rating and you'll almost always see FMs right on the top rankings. like right now there's FM universitario at 7th place, rated 3139. a hundred points and 5 places higher than GM larry christiansen for example.
even one single counterexample is enough to bust the 'equivalent strength claim', and there have already been multiple examples.
Originally posted by Tryfon Gavriel May I ask - how does the top 15 I presented support your point?!
Its really simple - I'm very doubtful that these guys are the top 15 FIDE OTB in the ICC 5 minute pool (or even in the top 30 FIDE OTB allowing for a little random variation). I know there are a lot of other GMs that play regularly in this pool. OTB rating is not a 100% predictor of blitz capability (which is all Cimon is claiming, as far as I can tell) and this list supports that.
Originally posted by Tryfon Gavriel May I ask - how does the top 15 I presented support your point?!
Rank Rat. 5-minute
1 2800 Vidocq (GM)
2 2737 Pinkalmykia (GM)
3 2688 GUNSNROSES (No title shown)
4 2675 Sage (No title shown)
5 2663 Smallville<------ (GM Nakumara)
6 2639 KinkyLoek (GM Van Wely)
7 2624 Impitoyable (IM since 1996)
8 2618 denmanisgod (GM)
9 2607 KRASA the data I presented from the top 15 list?! A straight YES or NO would be appreciated.
The fact that, 5 IMs and 8 GMs (we dont know who are these 2 anonymous ones, but I don't see the reason to presume that they must be GMs) are in top 15 is enough to support my claim that that ability to play blitz and standart time control is not the same. Otherwise there should have been all GMs in top 15.
And your "top 15 evidence" method helps you to avoid GMs and IMs with lower blitz rating.
Originally posted by Cimon The fact that, 5 IMs and 8 GMs (we dont know who are these 2 anonymous ones, but I don't see the reason to presume that they must be GMs) are in top 15 is enough to support my claim that that ability to play blitz and standart time control is not the same. Otherwise there should have been all GMs in top 15.
And your "top 15 evidence" method helps you avoid GMs and IMs with lower blitz rating.
Who would claim as a gross sweeping generalisation that GM's *always* will beat IM's and FM's?! I certainly don't. The evidence here is that at the top of the tree there are mostly GM's - which supports some of my intuitive claims that GM's have very fast intuition and fast calculation. Thats what I have been saying all along. And it is interesting that over 75% of those with titles on the ICC 5-minute autopairing top 15 list are actually GM's.
I have chosen the auto-pairing "5-minute" list btw, because it removes the bias of being able to choose your own opponents. When doing the autopairing, they are paired automatically for players doing well, as if for example it was a FIDE Swiss tournament format, where the more points you have, usually you have tougher opponents the next round. There is far less potential for rating inflation as a result on the autopairing - with max ratings usually being about 2600, instead of 3200 and beyond.
Originally posted by Tryfon Gavriel Who would claim as a gross sweeping generalisation that GM's *always* will beat IM's and FM's?! The evidence here is that at the top of the tree there are mostly GM's - which supports some of my intuitive claims that GM's have very fast intuition and fast calculation.
I have chosen the auto-pairing "5-minute" list btw, because it removes the bias ...[text shortened]... ormat, where the more points you have, usually you have tougher opponents the next round.
the beef was "is it possible to be good at blitz and bad at classical, or the other way around", not "do GMs tend to be better at blitz than IMs, FMs and untitled players."
Originally posted by wormwood the beef was "is it possible to be good at blitz and bad at classical, or the other way around", not "do GMs [b]tend to be better at blitz than IMs, FMs and untitled players."[/b]
Well said. Tryfon Gavriel - your straw man argument is refuted.
Originally posted by Cimon I repeat - compare Karpov's performance in standart time control in that tournament (1.5/9) with Ivanchuk's performance in Corus 2009 (5.5/13) and take into account that Ivanchuk had stronger opposition. I don't hate Karpov, but unfortunately his last results in standart time control are very bad for top GM. It's not only example of such a disastrous perform ...[text shortened]... during 2007-2009.
Tal in 1988 was far from being on top. Your ignorance is fascinating.
Ivanchuk was just eliminated from World cup by Wesley So...good that this did not happen in blitz because you would have argued that this is a very good argument that shows that blitz is a totally different game...
These results just happens, it is not so unbelievable that Karpov in a good day scored better in blitz than the great Ivanchuk...
blitz Top 4: Carlsen, Anand, and Karmnik
standard in top 4: Carlsen, Anand, Kramnik...this should tell you a lot...
Originally posted by vipiu Ivanchuk was just eliminated from World cup by Wesley So...good that this did not happen in blitz because you would have argued that this is a very good argument that shows that blitz is a totally different game...
These results just happens, it is not so unbelievable that Karpov in a good day scored better in blitz than the great Ivanchuk...
blitz Top 4: Ca ...[text shortened]... , Anand, and Karmnik
standard in top 4: Carlsen, Anand, Kramnik...this should tell you a lot...
Wesley So is very talented 16 years old youngster, making progress. Old Karpov with his 1.5/9 performance in Donostia Chess Festival would have no chances against him in standart time control today. Also Ivanchuk was overconfident when refused to force perpetual check in their first game. By the way - Ivanchuk tend to have not too good results in knock-out tournaments.
You may demonstrate your ignorance and repeat your inferior arguments as many times you want but it will not change the fact that there are players good in standart time control and worse in blitz and vice versa. It proves that blitz skills is not the same as skills to play in standart time control.
Originally posted by Cimon Wesley So is very talented 16 years old youngster, making progress. Old Karpov with his 1.5/9 performance in Donostia Chess Festival would have no chances against him in standart time control today. Also Ivanchuk was overconfident when refused to force perpetual check in their first game. By the way - Ivanchuk tend to have not too good results in knock-out tou ...[text shortened]... e versa. It proves that blitz skills is not the same as skills to play in standart time control.
may the ignorance be with you, Cimon...
progressing guy does not mean he is necessarry stronger than his current rating, regressing guy does not mean he is for sure weaker than his rating...
there is a very important attribute called form, but you can be ignorant and repeat that this is not important...the only important thing is that karpov was weak in some tournament in some year=> he will be forever weak as he is decreasing 🙂)
sooo funny 🙂
Originally posted by vipiu speculation, speculations, I can say in the same way he just missed that line...
Speculations?
Ivanchuk - So
FIDE World Cup 2009
In this position Ivanchuk played 21. Qh3+ Kg8 22. Qe6+ Kh8 and then he avoided to repeat these moves and played 23.Rf1. Do you still want to claim that Ivanchuk "missed that line" ?
Originally posted by vipiu may the ignorance be with you, Cimon...
progressing guy does not mean he is necessarry stronger than his current rating, regressing guy does not mean he is for sure weaker than his rating...
there is a very important attribute called form, but you can be ignorant and repeat that this is not important...the only important thing is that karpov was weak in some tournament in some year=> he will be forever weak as he is decreasing 🙂)
sooo funny 🙂
You are arguing against claims I haven't made i.e. against your own imaginations. I did not claim that "progressing guy does mean he is necessarry stronger than his current rating" or "regressing guy does mean he is for sure weaker than his rating".
Show me any Karpov's tournament 2007-2009 when he made 2700+ performance in standart time control. I guess you still haven't checked his results.
Blitz performance compared to ELO rating in Tal memorial
22 Nov '09 16:30
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