1. Standard memberPhlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    tinyurl.com/3sbbwd4
    Joined
    27 Mar '03
    Moves
    17242
    24 Apr '12 13:04
    Originally posted by Rank outsider
    Actually, it could work the other way round and be more confusing.

    Suppose I had been taking lessons from you. I trust you. You are my mentor. I worship the ground on which you tread (chesswise, that is). You tell me f3 is 'not correct'. I believe you.

    I then watch a GM game and see one play f3. I wait for the commentators to dismiss this a ...[text shortened]... le, and played, but that just for now we want to concentrate on other more general principles?
    I will now teach you beginner chess. Here we have the move f3. Well, my friend... that is a GRAND MASTER MOVE!~ You are not ready for this kind of move, it's power will betray you without proper training and you will succumb to the dark side of chess.

    Only when you are ready will you truly understand the f3 move.
  2. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    13814
    24 Apr '12 14:181 edit
    Originally posted by tvochess
    After kingside castling, the rook is often not on an (semi-)open file. So it's not done yet, is it? Also, I often feel the need to support a pawn with one of the rooks, I guess mostly the a or b pawns. And which rook do you choose, when both can be put on an open file?

    I don't think I should fianchetto both bishops in every game? Most openings are not ab enter of the board, where they are so vulnerable. Is it bad to keep them on d2/e2?

    Thanks.
    d2 or e2 would be pretty passive ways of developing your bishops. If you don't mind being defensive as white, then I don't see a real problem with it. Of course the general advice that I've seen is that white should take the advantage of the first move and take a more aggressive position.


    As to which rook to move, I'd say the general rule is that you should not move the same piece twice. The a file rook is generally the rook to be moved after 0-0.

    Yes, quite often there will be no open or semi-open files, so my advice was to put the rook on a file that you believe will become semi-open. Once again, this is something that I've read.


    Once a person knows why the general rules should be broken, then break them. Until then, it is generally wise to follow the basic rules.


    Having said that, beginners usually win or lose based on giving away pieces. They don't have the board vision to play good moves even if they want to play good moves. This is simply an observation that I've made based on my own personal experience.


    Also from personal experience I'd say it is very frustrating for a beginner to open in the 'right way' while the opponent does not and yet the opponent wins anyhow! Why bother using the right opening if I'm going to lose anyhow? Very frustrating.
  3. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    24 Apr '12 14:40
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    I will now teach you beginner chess. Here we have the move f3. Well, my friend... that is a GRAND MASTER MOVE!~ You are not ready for this kind of move, it's power will betray you without proper training and you will succumb to the dark side of chess.

    Only when you are ready will you truly understand the f3 move.
    what is this general forum flotsam doing in chess only, bouncers remove the bounder at
    once! and cut his hair and check him for concealed weed!
  4. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    24 Apr '12 14:53
    Originally posted by Rank outsider
    Actually, it could work the other way round and be more confusing.

    Suppose I had been taking lessons from you. I trust you. You are my mentor. I worship the ground on which you tread (chesswise, that is). You tell me f3 is 'not correct'. I believe you.

    I then watch a GM game and see one play f3. I wait for the commentators to dismiss this a ...[text shortened]... le, and played, but that just for now we want to concentrate on other more general principles?
    another logical fallacy, we dont teach beginners to worship us, we teach them
    general basic opening principles so that they may think for themselves. You see,
    this is the difference between a principle and a move like f3 which has no real
    independent value, its not a principle at all. Yes you can justify it as knightstalker
    attempted to do and to state that it reduces the mobility of the f6 knight, which it
    does, but its better to teach beginners to develop their pieces rather than make
    pawn moves which dont develop anything nor aid the development of pieces, thus
    the principle of development superseded that of restriction. Again you are
    committing a logical fallacy, no one says that f3 is a blunder, in the context of
    teaching beginners its simply better to teach them to develop their pieces. You
    arguments are particularly weak and you commit fallacy after fallacy in an attempt
    to justify a stance which has no justification within the context that it was presented,
    that is teaching beginners basic opening principles.
  5. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    24 Apr '12 14:571 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    d2 or e2 would be pretty passive ways of developing your bishops. If you don't mind being defensive as white, then I don't see a real problem with it. Of course the general advice that I've seen is that white should take the advantage of the first move and take a more aggressive position.


    As to which rook to move, I'd say the general rule is that you s ! Why bother using the right opening if I'm going to lose anyhow? Very frustrating.
    the principle of maximum activity comes into play, that is, we place our bishops on
    squares where they have the greatest influence. This is the beauty of teaching a
    beginner principles, when their opponent violates a principle, they will be immediately
    be aware of it and punish them for it.
  6. Account suspended
    Joined
    10 Dec '11
    Moves
    143494
    24 Apr '12 14:58
    I am soon gonna make a parody of this thread on General forum... 😵
  7. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    24 Apr '12 15:004 edits
    Originally posted by vandervelde
    I am soon gonna make a parody of this thread on General forum... 😵
    why not do it here, no one cares anyway, i certainly dont, although Nimzo kind of beat
    you to it and phlab as well.
  8. Joined
    08 Apr '09
    Moves
    19509
    24 Apr '12 15:18
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    the principle of maximum activity comes into play, that is, we place our bishops on
    squares where they have the greatest influence. This is the beauty of teaching a
    beginner principles, when their opponent violates a principle, they will be immediately
    be aware of it and punish them for it.
    But this often makes the bishop vulnerable for a pawn attack or reduces the activity of other pieces (e.g. a bishop on d3 limits the range of the queen)...
  9. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    24 Apr '12 15:34
    Originally posted by tvochess
    But this often makes the bishop vulnerable for a pawn attack or reduces the activity of other pieces (e.g. a bishop on d3 limits the range of the queen)...
    yes of course one must watch out for the bishop being kicked around, never the less it
    should be posted where it has influence.
  10. Joined
    11 Oct '04
    Moves
    5344
    24 Apr '12 15:34
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    another logical fallacy, we dont teach beginners to worship us, we teach them
    general basic opening principles so that they may think for themselves. You see,
    this is the difference between a principle and a move like f3 which has no real
    independent value, its not a principle at all. Yes you can justify it as knightstalker
    attempted to do ...[text shortened]... within the context that it was presented,
    that is teaching beginners basic opening principles.
    There are often two ways to say the same thing. I just suggested an alternative way of expressing the same thing in a less provocative fashion.

    It was meant constructively, not as a personal criticism. The phraseology relating to mentor was intended to be light-hearted.

    I like what you write. But it's difficult to engage with you when you always seem to take any suggestions in the most hostile way possible. Although you probably won't accept this, I think you have made this more of an issue than it needs to be.
  11. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    24 Apr '12 15:532 edits
    Originally posted by Rank outsider
    There are often two ways to say the same thing. I just suggested an alternative way of expressing the same thing in a less provocative fashion.

    It was meant constructively, not as a personal criticism. The phraseology relating to mentor was intended to be light-hearted.

    I like what you write. But it's difficult to engage with you when you alwa ...[text shortened]... u probably won't accept this, I think you have made this more of an issue than it needs to be.
    my friend, it is very difficult to gauge emotion from the text on an internet forum page,
    we cannot see facial expressions, we cannot gauge anything from gestures, we cannot infer
    anything from the tone of voice etc etc, I was not being hostile, i have not used any
    personal insults, told you you were talking nonsense, indeed I was merely pointing out
    what appeared to me to be erroneous. You say I have made too much of it, even here
    there is a fallacy, for its not about me, is it, never the less, seeing that I like you, I
    apologize if i have offended you and failed to accurately estimate your light-hearted
    tone and I bow before your humility and in true eastern fashion, i touch the ground
    before your feet in referential respect! We should be friends!
  12. e4
    Joined
    06 May '08
    Moves
    42492
    24 Apr '12 16:44
    Hi Robbie

    "This is the beauty of teaching a beginner principles, when their opponent
    violates a principle, they will be immediately be aware of it and punish them for it."

    Very true but the shots are rarely pointed out. The teachers have more
    important to things to show them (or read to them from a book.) A Karpov
    game, an Anand game or Capa bloody Blanca...

    Simply showing them Fools Mate and Scholars mate and then onto
    some ultra serious opening study is never enough.

    One step at a time. You cannot teach how to open a game of chess in an afternoon.
    Any student of mine will be shown dozens and dozens of games where every
    tactical trick is used and numerous examples of principles being scorned and whacked.
    (not forgettting the visa-versa. The unpunished violation that wins a game.)

    It's hard coaching on an open net where players of different levels and opinions
    can chip in. All mean well and most make valid suggestions, though they do
    often forget the subject was Beginners.

    Beginners have to revel in the sheer joy of speedy development, tactics and patterns.
    They need ideas, they need to be shown everything.

    (and that other lad is right. Don't take every piece of advice or question
    as a personal attack.) 😉

    Most of the notes are comments I would make or how to use this game as
    a teaching aid.

  13. Standard memberbyedidia
    Mister Why
    San Carlos, CA
    Joined
    21 Feb '12
    Moves
    6039
    24 Apr '12 17:03
    This is a nice game, Greenpawn. I'm going to use it. Who were the players?
  14. Joined
    11 Oct '04
    Moves
    5344
    24 Apr '12 17:06
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    my friend, it is very difficult to gauge emotion from the text on an internet forum page,
    we cannot see facial expressions, we cannot gauge anything from gestures, we cannot infer
    anything from the tone of voice etc etc, I was not being hostile, i have not used any
    personal insults, told you you were talking nonsense, indeed I was merely pointi ...[text shortened]... rn fashion, i touch the ground
    before your feet in referential respect! We should be friends!
    Point taken and accepted.

    Although being a product of a UK public school, and therefore emotionally stunted, I would prefer to adopt the more traditional Western means of making amends.

    In other words, look a bit sheepish, dont mention it for a couple of days, then act as if it never happened.....

    🙂

    Back to chess now!
  15. e4
    Joined
    06 May '08
    Moves
    42492
    24 Apr '12 17:54
    Hi byedidia

    I made it up about an hour ago from a might have been game I've played.
    I know the e-pawn trick because I play Bb5 v the Sicilian and I have pulled
    off the Qxd5 trick in the past.

    This teaching of one sided smashes is a method I enjoy and I know it sinks in.

    It's based on the military. They teach recruits how to fire their rifles at targets
    that don't shoot back. They learn how to aim, hit their target and reload.
    They also learn the baynot charge against a sack of sand.
    The know everything about their weapon before they are sent into battle.

    When they guy is good is ready THEN we go back to these games and see
    the defeated player putting up a defence. Not playing plausible bad moves but
    defending and setting counter snares. I might use the above position where
    Black does not grab the pawn but develops instead though I have a pile
    of stock games I use that I know inside out.

    This way when we are getting into the meat of the openings he is not being
    amazed by the tactics. He has seen them all before, he knows what to look for.

    For instance if you are at the stage where you are showing him say
    the ideas behind the Two Knights and how to avoid the Fried Liver and
    during the game a Philidors Mate crops up and he has never seen it before.

    What do you think he will take from the lesson?
    Development, watch for sacs on f7, the exposed King.....No!
    He will be over awed by what he has just seen. (we all were.)

    First get him hitting the Bullseye, Then I start moving the target.
    Things are not so easy now..... Time for some Chess.

    One step at a time.
Back to Top

Cookies help us deliver our Services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn More.I Agree