okay, thanks everyone!
I'll wait it out a few more games and see how this person does.
Then I'll possibly report it.
I have a theory that maybe he/she was just playing bad against their friends, then started playing normally after the first 15 games. Thus is rising up like crazy towards their skill level/ranking?
1) first you get a hunch. it can be something in his graph, something he says, or something in one of his games. if he's rated below 1800, you can most likely congratulate yourself for being paranoid.
2) you pick one of his completed games against a high rated player, strip out the database moves, and check out the rest. if you don't know what you're looking for, check out some accurate GM games from, say, capablanca, and see how they behave.
3) if you still think there's something really fishy in the player you're investigating, report him to the game mods with your evidence.
Originally posted by C J HorseYes, but you won a special training regime which would have helped your rise in rating.
A rollercoaster graph (like mine) is a sign of honesty. Most of my games are clan games and my theory is that my rating goes up while winning until I eventually get to a point where I'm being matched with opponents of an apparently similar rating, but who are well capable of beating me (because I am now over-rated). I then get a load of losses until my rat ...[text shortened]... ith players I have a good chance of beating. Then I start to go up again. And so on. And so on.
- Joined
- 09 Aug 01
- Moves
- 54191
Originally posted by scandiumwell i did think the original poster was obsessing. the only thing i want to state is that one should not suspect or accuse so freely. maybe what i wanted to imply is that beginners, especailly, should not.
It doesn't require an obsession to simply send feedback and leave it at that. In a case where you see a player losing most of his initial games to 800s and then going onto a 70 game winning streak against players up to 1800, that merits feedback. In fact, IMHO it'd be irresponsible to spot something like that and not send feedback.
Your post implies that ...[text shortened]... They're the ones who'll look at the games and see if there's anything going on or not.
Originally posted by C J HorseTo add to that - I also tend to move more in games I'm winning and re-think my moves in the games where I'm in a tight spot waiting for divine intervention. I may win 4 in a row but when the time limits on the losing games catch up to me, I may lose 4 in a row.
A rollercoaster graph (like mine) is a sign of honesty. Most of my games are clan games and my theory is that my rating goes up while winning until I eventually get to a point where I'm being matched with opponents of an apparently similar rating, but who are well capable of beating me (because I am now over-rated). I then get a load of losses until my rat ...[text shortened]... ith players I have a good chance of beating. Then I start to go up again. And so on. And so on.
I managed to get myself over 1500 but I'm behind in a few games with people 200+ pts. below me so my rating will be in free fall soon!
Originally posted by scandiumWhich may be the case if the player in question has actually beaten an 1800 after losing to 800 players but for the player concerned I have found no evidence of him ever playing an 1800 let alone beating him.
It doesn't require an obsession to simply send feedback and leave it at that. In a case where you see a player losing most of his initial games to 800s and then going onto a 70 game winning streak against players up to 1800, that merits feedback. In fact, IMHO it'd be irresponsible to spot something like that and not send feedback.
Your post implies that ...[text shortened]... They're the ones who'll look at the games and see if there's anything going on or not.
Originally posted by Dragon FireI hadn't looked to see who the player in question was, nor even looked at the profile of the OP to try and hazard a guess. I simply fired a quick off the cuff response and subsequent posts have had me eating my words (yes, I can man up and admit it that my response was worded too strongly and without putting a lot of forethought behind it).
Which may be the case [b]if the player in question has actually beaten an 1800 after losing to 800 players but for the player concerned I have found no evidence of him ever playing an 1800 let alone beating him.[/b]
For one, I hadn't considered the ramifications of how many legit cheats (an oxymoron I know) would go on cheating far longer than they have any right to should the admins become deluged by a flood of baseless accusations.
At the same time, its not like you can publicly solicit on the forum a second opinion as to whether player x is cheating and should be reported as suspicious, since that would be tantamount to an accusation which is also a no-no.
Anyway, I'm rambling now. I suppose my point remains that if you have good grounds to be suspicious that you have a responsibility to act accordingly; at the same time, part of acting responsibly means abstaining from making spurious accusations (good god I sound like a politician).
The whole issue seems pretty murky to me. It's difficult to see why people would go to great lengths to cheat in a systematic way, because there really isn't that much to gain. I don't think many do it all the time, though there have been some fairly blatant examples in the past (e.g. Ironman, Yozzer, Meman). In fact, I should imagine if someone with an up-to-date engine and decent hardware specs allowed the engine say five minutes per move every game, they'd be pretty soon 'playing' at 2350 at least (possibly higher).
So the cheats obviously pick and choose when they do it. I have seen instances where relatively lowly rated players suddenly start to play like Tal on steroids, but I wonder what motivates them to do it in some games but not others. In some ways I preferred playing Ironman & co, because at least I had a pretty good idea of what was going on. (Ironman, or his engine, even did me a favour by refuting one of my own little ideas in the Schliemann...)
Here is my take:
First, let me say... if someone wants to cheat, let them! Who cares. As long as you get to play Chess. You'll just stress yourself out trying to prove wether they are cheating or not. You must learn that this game should be played for pleasure & to improve your Chess. If you play your own games (dont cheat) then you should derive some sort of pleasure & you should improve. The guy who is cheating... what kind of pleasure is he getting??? How is he learning to improve his game???
Just my opinion, is all. Anyway, if you want to know if someone is cheating or not, do what I do. I talk Chess to them. You see, a strong Chess engine can tell them what move is best but, it cant tell them what the plan is. Ask them something like "WoW!, I never saw that move coming. I was expecting you to attack in the center, how come you played 22.b3, I'm not sure if I understand your idea with that??" Ask them what their ideas are, ask them what their plan was. Ask them how come they didnt do this or that. See, an Engine can tell them what move to make but, it cant tell them the idea behind the move or moves.
A Chess engine works in moves while a good player works in ideas, plans & ideas.
Any specific questions, please feel free to message me.
Michael
Originally posted by mmafighterwww.redhotpawn.com
First, let me say... if someone wants to cheat, let them! Who cares. As long as you get to play Chess.
Play online correspondence chess through a feature-rich, browser interface against your friends or other members.
If people wanted to play against a machine, they would go and buy a engine.
There are places on the net where people can play their engines against each other - this site is for humans vs. humans.
Check out the forums and how many people post there regularly and then check the amount of registered users who just play chess. Many of these people don't know what is going on to remove and discourage cheaters and will just leave if they feel the site is being overrun by cheaters.
The owners can't allow revenue to stream out the door because people like you don't mind the odd cheater.
Originally posted by CrowleyUnfortunately you are right. Stronger chess players don't want to play engines and will leave if they feel their hard work is for nothing. My friend Fat Lady comes to mind. I know him from OTB play so know he is a genuine player rated above 2100 and probably 250 points above me OTB yet he has stopped playing here simply because he feels "there are too many engine users and not enough is done to remove them".
www.redhotpawn.com
Play online correspondence chess through a feature-rich, browser interface against your friends or other members.
If people wanted to play against a machine, they would go and buy a engine.
There are places on the net where people can play their engines against each other - this site is for humans vs. humans.
Check out the f an't allow revenue to stream out the door because people like you don't mind the odd cheater.
Another player I have tried to interest in joining who is 2370 OTB and probably higher in correspondence chess whom I have regularly seen out play engines is simply not interested in joining because "he can play an engine any time".
If you are below about 1800 it really doesn't matter a lot. Above 2300 and it matters a great deal although if you suspect you are playing an engine you can adopt "anti engine" moves. In between these ratings it is simply annoying when no matter how hard you try you find you are totally out thought consistently on the best tactics you can think up and never feel you have any sort of chance. After a while you get demoralised and de motivated.
I try and avoid players I feel are suspect and do not enter tournaments where I think I am up against engines. Unfortunately that means I end up playing too many lower rated players (as our friend z00t once remarked) but at least I am playing humans and I will enjoy the game far more than another humiliating bout against Fritz. At least against them I have a chance to try out tactics that stand a chance of working.
The poster is right engines can't talk chess. Most of them rarely, if ever, post in the chess forum and if they do they can talk moves but not ideas. Moves are of course important but the ideas behind them are even more important. So if your opponent can't talk ideas does it mean anything? Possibly not as many quite genuine players don't like to chat during a game although most good players will discuss it afterwards and give you their ideas.
Edit: However it is important to note that I think Admin here does far more to control and remove suspect players than many other sites and I feel it is better than most.
Originally posted by mmafighterFor the most part I have a similar attitude to you with regard to engine users. But some time ago I was chatting to Marinkatomb about this - we play on the same OTB chess team and he introduced me to RHP - and he said:
Here is my take:
First, let me say... if someone wants to cheat, let them! Who cares. As long as you get to play Chess. You'll just stress yourself out trying to prove wether they are cheating or not.
"That's all very well but what if you've worked for months on a tournament...nearly won it...only to find that the eventual winner turned out to be a 14yr old with a copy of Fritz and no interest in chess." And I could see his point. People invest a lot of time and energy here to compete against other people and I can understand their frustration with cheats. It's like going to a wine tasting and being offered beer - not what you came for.
The other question your post raises is your method of testing by asking questions. Presumably you mean asking questions about moves after the game has finished as players may not wish to discuss their plans while the game is in progress. What if you're opponent speaks another language or doesn't feel comfortable with online chat? These would be genuine reasons for not responding to your questions.
I'm still not at a stage where I can spot an engine user from their style of play but if I do have suspicions I may well look into it further because I believe it helps the community to keep cheats out. I can run a game through my engine for a quick check and if still suspicious ask one of the more experienced players to look at it - and then I'd report it.
It is quite easy to get drawn into suspicions for erroneous reasons too so it's advisable - in my opinion - not to talk about them publicly.