Originally posted by paultopiaWhat strikes me,is the complete lack of objectivity people show on the subject of openings.Instead of looking at the positions themselves,they just seem to imitate the current GM's choices.I don't get that,the fact that today's leading GM's don't play an opening,doesn't mean it's unsound.What's in fashion today,can be out tomorrow.Remember,there was a time noself respecting GM would ever play the sicilian.It was considered unsound.Yet,some stubborn 'fools' kept playing and analysing this 'crappy' opening.We all know what happened!
It amazes and horrifies me that, in any thread where the soundness of an opening is called into question, Spassky and the King's Gambit get mentioned...
And then there's the issue of our playing strength,as pointed out by Tony.Most of the time the choice of opening is not what decides the outcome of a game.This is true,even for GM's.
Sir Lot.
Originally posted by paultopiaYes, I did miss something...
I think I've already lost.
Tell me something. People who play this king fianchetto stuff as black -- the larsen, the dragon, the KI, whatever. What on earth is black supposed to do after 6. Bg5? Resign? It seems like that move just forces weaknesses. If black lets it stay there, the fianchettoed bishop can be forced off at will. If black kicks ...[text shortened]... ay the dragon too.
(edit: I seem to have survived, but only because of tactical intervention)
11. Nxc7+ Kd8
12. Bxe7+ Kxe7
13. Rhe1
Originally posted by paultopiaWhy would anybody play Bg5 in the Dragon? The damn thing is just going to get in the way of your pawn storm there. That bishop can be used for two things against the Dragon: forcing an early exchange with Black's strong fianchettoed bishop, or hanging out at e3 helping to control d4. It's misplaced anywhere else.
yea, that wouldve been 1-0 pretty quick.
That Bg5 stuff seems to be a major problem. At least in the dragon, the knight isn't actually PINNED, because the e pawn is still at home...
Originally posted by paultopiaMarshall himself played the Petrov with erudition and tactical strength. Curiously enough I was reading Tartakower's book and I found this interesting game:
Thanks everyone.
You can tell I'm desperate when I list the pirc as #2. I've never played that thing, and don't trust it, although every time someone plays it against me, I lose -- albeit generally by attacking it so violently that I blunder.
Funny enough, the one time I played the french as black I won. granted, I chose it for psychological r ...[text shortened]... has a certain appeal 🙂 Nonetheless, I know the petrof is solid.
Or philidor, I guess... ?
[Event "Biarritz -"]
[Site "Biarritz -"]
[Date "1912.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Janowsky Dawid"]
[Black "Marshall"]
[ECO "C42"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "48"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d4 d5 6.Bd3 Bd6 7.c4 Bb4+ 8.Kf1 O-O 9.cxd5 Qxd5 10.Qc2 Re8 11.Nc3 Nxc3 12.bxc3 Qxf3
13.cxb4 Nc6 14.Bb2 Nxb4 15.Bxh7+ Kh8 16.gxf3 Bh3+ 17.Kg1 Nxc2 18.Bxc2 Re2 19.Rc1 Rae8 20.Bc3 R8e3 21.Bb4 Rxf3 22.Bd1 Rf6 23.Bc2 Rxc2 24.Rxc2 Rg6+ 0-1
It got me so interested in the opening that I decided to check Karpov's book on the Petrov. Really cute...
Originally posted by no1marauderI think this might be a little wrong. I think Bg5 is fine in the dragon. You mentioned that it goes to h6 alot, so why does it matter where it is before that? Not to mention the fact that you can whipe out the defenders of d5 and then play Nd5! yourself with a bang. I have had Bg5 played against me in the dragon a couple times, and I really think it's legit.
Why would anybody play Bg5 in the Dragon? The damn thing is just going to get in the way of your pawn storm there. That bishop can be used for two things against the Dragon: forcing an early exchange with Black's strong fianchettoed bishop, or hanging out at e3 helping to control d4. It's misplaced anywhere else.
Originally posted by !~TONY~!I think 6 Bg5 is an inferior move in the Dragon for the reasons I stated and apparently most strong players agree with me: I checked a number of online databases and the move is rarely played. To give one example, on Chessgames.com out of 2,248 Dragon games it was played only 23 times! Moreover a sampling of databases gives White about a 20 point edge when he plays 6 Be3, whereas on a much smaller sample size 6 Bg5 winning advantage is considerably less or nonexistent. MCO-14 doesn't even have a Dragon line with 6 Bg5! So if I was foolish enough to play the Dragon, I'd breathe a sigh of relief every time my opponent played 6 Bg5 instead of 6 Be3!
I think this might be a little wrong. I think Bg5 is fine in the dragon. You mentioned that it goes to h6 alot, so why does it matter where it is before that? Not to mention the fact that you can whipe out the defenders of d5 and then play Nd5! yourself with a bang. I have had Bg5 played against me in the dragon a couple times, and I really think it's legit.
Originally posted by no1marauderPaultopia was talking about a game i am playing against which is a philidor, not a dragon... In fact, 6.Bg5 is a great move and I believe it is the main line, and it did cause problems for paultopia in our game...
Why would anybody play Bg5 in the Dragon? The damn thing is just going to get in the way of your pawn storm there. That bishop can be used for two things against the Dragon: forcing an early exchange with Black's strong fianchettoed bishop, or hanging out at e3 helping to control d4. It's misplaced anywhere else.
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Originally posted by GambitzoidHuge problems. It's bad enough in the dragon absent a pin. With a pin, it seems to destroy the kingside. As the game actually showed ( Game 741591 ), white already had a development advantage. I almost lost on the spot trying to clear my pieces to castle queenside. Would've, if he'd caught the tactics that would've won all my material. (see earlier post). Yet, I couldn't castle kingside. HE would have immediately gotten the dragon bishop traded off, or forced the horribly weakening h6 push. So where was my king supposed to go??
Paultopia was talking about a game i am playing against which is a philidor, not a dragon... In fact, 6.Bg5 is a great move and I believe it is the main line, and it did cause problems for paultopia in our game...
Sir Lot? Tony? You guys wanna look at that game? Ignoring the knight blunder at the end from a better position, how do folks think I could have answered Bg5 without making my king permanantly unsafe?
Originally posted by GambitzoidI didn't read the whole thread, but my opinion on 6. Bg5 stands. You guys must be playing with Paul's head suggesting the Philidor and has for the game 7. .... h6 is obviously the move and if you don't want to be forced to play a very defensive game don't play the Philidor!!
Well, 7... Qe7 was a terrible move, much better would have been 7... h6, which you mentioned you didn't like but is your best option, after that its just a matter of accurate defense, but accurate defense is not what most people want to play...
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Originally posted by no1marauderafter 7. ... h6, 8. Be3 I STILL can't castle kingside, since that hangs the pawn. so the question again is.. where do I put my king? leave it in the center? Still not enough time to clear the queenside to go that way. Certainly can't push g5. My calculation after that is very simple: 7. ... h6 8. Be3 g5 9. o-o-o o-o 10. f4 resigns 1-0. I'd still have to try and prepare queenside castling, non? And where does the time come for that before the center explodes?
7. .... h6 is obviously the move and if you don't want to be forced to play a very defensive game don't play the Philidor!!
Ok, I bought a book a long time ago and here is what is has to say as a whole on the Larsen and Phillidor itself:
" The Philidor Defense has a terrible reputation, even though some very strong players such as Bent Larsen have used it in important Encounters. by locking in the bishop at f8, Black reduces the options for defensive formations. The only viable line is the one Larsen has promoted, involving the fianchetto of the dark squared bishop combined with an early capture on d4. This can be very dangerous for white....blah...skipping.......The Larsen Variation has a lot in common with the Sicilian Dragon, with the important difference that Black has a semi-open e-file instead of a c-file. This means that the pressure will be applied to e4, and that exchange sacrifices at c3, typical in the Dragon, are not available. For a long time it was thought that black did not have enough firepower on the queenside to counter a kingside pawnstorm for white, but recently new ideas have been found to invigorate the Black Position. This is one of the easiest openings to play as black, since the ideas are simple: develop, castle kinside, place a rook on e8 and a knight on c6, and then let the pawns fly on the queenside. Play is very sharp, and there is nothing boring about this line of the Philidor!"
It gives nothing on Bg5, and I think I might have gotten this one. The question is, why not wait to play Nf6 a little bit longer if possible, giving him a change to put his dark squared bishop somewhere else? Play Nc6, g6, and Bg7 first, giving him a chance to put it on e3 or f4. From what I read, e3 is supposedly the best spot for it anyway. Also, you may wanna check out Kosten's book on the Philidor variation to see what he has to say. The example game in my book goes:
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. d4 exd4
4. Nxd4 g6
5. Nc3 Bg7
6. Bf4, with Be3 given as best.
So Bg5 is never a problem! How about that?
Originally posted by !~TONY~!I like that :-) thank you.
Ok, I bought a book a long time ago and here is what is has to say as a whole on the Larsen and Phillidor itself:
" The Philidor Defense has a terrible reputation, even though some very strong players such as Bent Larsen have used it in important Encounters. by locking in the bishop at f8, Black reduces the options for defensive formations. The only via ...[text shortened]...
5. Nc3 Bg7
6. Bf4, with Be3 given as best.
So Bg5 is never a problem! How about that?