Originally posted by exigentskyYou're either not fully understanding what I was getting at or twisting my words to fit whatever point you're trying to make. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that its the former, and I've posted words to the effect of what you're quoting 2, if not 3 different times in separate threads and don't feel like beating a dead horse there if someone either doesn't see what I'm getting at or simply disagrees. Whichever it is, if we have different opinions on the utility and ramifications of weaker players doing and relying on engine assisted pre-game "research" then we'll have to leave it at that and agree to disagree.
All modern opening analysis by masters or nonmasters uses engines to a degree. Sometimes it is merely for verification of soundness and other times it is to find some new idea. If you claim that only masters should be allowed to do opening research with engines then you're essentially claiming that nonmasters aren't allowed to do any of their own opening ...[text shortened]... ng whatever tools available is not prohibited and is a critical part of correspondence chess.
You often make insightful posts that many times I agree with. Maybe here we don't, but I've said my piece on that and don't wish to argue that point with you or anyone else now.
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Originally posted by scandiumBarring any original analysis (unlikely because Qf6 is not challenging in any way) move 11 is his first non-database move. Thus, you're evaluating his engine use by a sample of five moves. This is a ridiculously small sample size. Moreover, it is a very sharp position in which many moves are practically forced and thus engine matchup is very likely to be high. In sharp positions like this, I've had some of my own games (even blitz) with a 80% match-up rate or even more if you consider second move choices. If you look at Fischer or Kasparov's games, you'll sometimes find that the engine match-up is 95% or even higher in very sharp positions arising out of the opening. Often, engine use may be suspected a little if the moves in sharp positions are very unnatural for a human. Let's examine his moves:
Only a single move eh? How about 5 consecutive moves, every one of them made after your opponent departed book (at which point the evaluation, with your opp's departure from the book line you were both following is -/+ 1.29 in his favour. Then you made 4 consecutive 1st choice Fritz 10 moves followed by a 2nd choice Fritz 10 move, which was the final move {1} Qe7d6 14. Bd2b4 {1} c5 15. Qf3g4 {2} 1-0
Or would you like more?
11. Rae1
Especially in a position when a piece was sacrificed, time and initiative is of the essence. Could there be anything more natural than developing the only remaining piece and pinning the knight to the king.
12. Rxe7
This move is practically forced for White to stay in the game and is once again very natural. White's only advantage is in time, if he doesn't use that, he is dead lost. An advantage of time is best exploited through direct attack and here the king is weak. Thus, he's going to try to open it up more by eliminating an important defender and distracting the Queen.
13. Nd5
Very natural. If you can move your knight to an excellent central square better suited for attack and kick the Black queen in the process, this is the move. It is very consistent with the mindset in these positions.
14. Bb4
This is a move that virtually any player at the 1600 level or more will see quite quickly. The Queen is diagonally lined up with the rook so of course you will attack both of them in one move and have the option of winning the exchange too (in addition to further weakening the Black king by blocking escape squares).
15. Qg4+
Black's pieces are not well-coordinated and this is a good way of taking advantage of it. Of course, in these positions one looks for checks and captures first so this move just pops out. On the other hand Bc3 is significantly stronger. It may be Fritz's second choice but the difference is quite big in the evaluation. It's about a difference of 2 pawns which is gigantic by both human and engine standards.
Thus, not only are you going by 5 non-book moves, but only 4 of them are engine matches and all very natural and fairly forced. The only move that seemed a bit harder to find, Bc3 is the one he didn't play. As I've stated before, I expect that the mods have done their homework, but if anything, this game is evidence of his innocence rather than his guilt. All these statistical methods must be used carefully (even high matchup with no context for the game position is irrelevant) because like all statistics, they show trend and probability, not absolute truth.
Originally posted by scandiumVery well, we won't debate it here. But, is it correct that you think players below a certain level should not be allowed to use engines in their original pre-game opening analysis because then, you expect their new analysis to be simply the engine analysis stored away for their opponents? Whew, I guess I should have broken down that long question.
You're either not fully understanding what I was getting at or twisting my words to fit whatever point you're trying to make. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that its the former, and I've posted words to the effect of what you're quoting 2, if not 3 different times in separate threads and don't feel like beating a dead horse there if someone either d ...[text shortened]... d my piece on that and don't wish to argue that point with you or anyone else now.
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Originally posted by Mad Mac MacMadYeah, let's not turn this into a witch hunt. We don't want genuine fast risers to be afraid to play well out of fear of being suspected (not by the mods necessarily but by their peers).
Wow, Mr Angryman you're evidence is damning
Well, anyway, I think I've made my main points clear and there's not much more I need to add.
Originally posted by exigentskyAfter calling me "slime" he emphatically stated that I could not find a single game of his where he made an engine move. So I pulled a ran random game of his that he'd posted on the forum through Fritz and after his opp departs book, of the remaining 5 moves, 4 of them are Fritz first choices and 1, the last in the game, is a second choice. Sure his moves were plausible, they engine wouldn't have picked them if they weren't, but the position was very unclear with no apparent forcing sequence to be found.
Barring any original analysis (unlikely because Qf6 is not challenging in any way) move 11 is his first non-database move. Thus, you're evaluating his engine use by a sample of five moves. This is a ridiculously small sample size. Moreover, it is a very sharp position in which many moves are practically forced and thus engine matchup is very likely to be ...[text shortened]... because like all statistics, they show a trend and probability, not absolute truth.
It wasn't posted to be the definitive proof that he's a cheater, having been banned for cheating already then presumably the definitive proof has already been found, analyzed, and found convincing by the admin team. I posted that game with its analysis merely for how elegantly and economically it throws his challenge back in his face.
As it stands now I don't think I have anymore time today or even tomorrow to look at of his other games (I have my own I need to pay some attention to first), but if you're sure you want to throw your lot in with this fellow and continue to defend him then that's fine. I'll dig through some more when I have time and post the results here. If nothing else it'll entertain me to watch you do what he has never done (look through his posts), which is to explain in chess terms why he choose any of the moves he made in the numerous games he posted here.
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Originally posted by exigentskyLOL you think someone who plays 1200 level chess for 4 years on RHP before suddenly jumping to 2000 in 10 months a "genuine fast riser"? And one who happens to have just stated earlier that "it doesn't matter whether you cheat or not"?
Yeah, let's not turn this into a witch hunt. We don't want genuine fast risers to be afraid to play well out of fear of being suspected (not by the mods necessarily but by their peers).
You're not by chance an attorney are you? If not you should really consider a career in criminal law, as clearly you have no qualms about defending anyone.
By the way, one after thought. Mad Mac really should write a book on how he achieved such astronomical progress after 4 years of struggling just to figure out how the pieces moved. That would be an instant best seller.
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Originally posted by scandiumOf course it was terrible of him to call you slime. However, the game posted is not at all suspicious to me. It is extremely natural and even without calculating anything, I would have probably played the same way. The moves really are pretty forced based on the mindset one has in a position like that. By this I mean, searching for the initiative and using time efficiently as well as attacking. It is all very simple and the only move that may have been more complicated was missed. Engine matchup percentages in isolation are almost meaningless. Plus, as I mentioned, the sample size makes it irrelevant.
After calling me "slime" he emphatically stated that I could not find a single game of his where he made an engine move. So I pulled a ran random game of his that he'd posted on the forum through Fritz and after his opp departs book, of the remaining 5 moves, 4 of them are Fritz first choices and 1, the last in the game, is a second choice. Sure his moves s terms why he choose any of the moves he made in the numerous games he posted here.
Anyway, please do not misinterpret me. I am not defending anyone. I'm simply being objective as I always try to be. I have stated from the beginning that I expect the mods have found convincing evidence of his cheating following the opening phase. They surely do not take any ban lightly. Moreover, they probably allowed him to prove himself guilty after they already suspected him. By this, I mean that they allowed him to continue playing after the evidence was already good.
I'm a little surprised and disappointed that so many people keep saying, "He was such a nice guy" and "He was so helpful." Sure he may have been, and he kept a nice tone in his posts, but did NO ONE detect a constant stream of hubris and self-importance? Many of his posts or threads started with things like "I just figured this out" or "I just made 1600, 1700, etc." Being excited about achieving something is one thing, but couldn't anyone else detect that constant stream of self-promotion?
I don't mean to launch a fresh accusation at the guy in public. I'm just illustrating that the lack of humility (even though he may be a nice guy overall) is consistent with engine use. I'm not putting this forth as proof of anything, just an observation that no one has made yet.
[P. S. What happened with Dutch Defense getting banned a month ago? I missed that thread!]
Originally posted by exigentskyFair enough.
Of course it was terrible of him to call you slime. However, the game posted is not at all suspicious to me. It is extremely natural and even without calculating anything, I would have probably played the same way. The moves really are pretty forced based on the mindset one has in a position like that. By this I mean, searching for the initiative and usin ...[text shortened]... By this, I mean that they allowed him to continue playing after the evidence was already good.