Originally posted by FeastboyI know what cc is...that is what makes it confusing... a real time correspondence chess game 😕
I don't know what 'cc' is either but I get the gist. Wouldn't a chess engine take quite a bit of time to run middle game scenarios though? I doubt you could use it that quickly could you?
Besides which if the moves are indicative of a chess engines moves then the amount of time taken to make those moves wouldn't matter too much would it?
just adding my 2 cents here...
I won't judge on whether he cheated or not, but on the system/algorithm that analyses people-suspected of cheating- game moves.
Unlike common belief, the systems you have to be most concerned about are the ones whose algorithms are kept secret. Secrecy gives a false sense of security.
In rhp, nothing much is said about cheating detection, and as such, we may assume with reasonable doubt that the system may or may not be flawed.
So unless game mods come up with solid material to back up their decisions, this discussion abt cheating or not will go on endlessly
Originally posted by wormwoodSorry, I posted without quote. My First. Like I said, possibly he played on his own for a while in a game, and when felt like he was begining to loose ground, used a chess engine.
I remember skimming through a game of his a week or so ago, and was just amazed how ugly it was (pointless opening moves) and how he still managed to totally crush his opponent. I wanted to check it with fritz, but I still don't have anything installed on my spanking new vista... (anybody happen to know how to make fritz 9 work on vista?)
Originally posted by poluxDivulging the methods of detection will better enable the cheaters to evade them.
just adding my 2 cents here...
I won't judge on whether he cheated or not, but on the system/algorithm that analyses people-suspected of cheating- game moves.
Unlike common belief, the systems you have to be most concerned about are the ones whose algorithms are kept secret. Secrecy gives a false sense of security.
In rhp, nothing much is said about cheat ...[text shortened]... d material to back up their decisions, this discussion abt cheating or not will go on endlessly
1 edit
Originally posted by MahoutHow many ways of cheating exists? Do as many ways as chess engines exists? In that case, I think that show the evidence in public can't change the cheater's mind, on the contrary, it shortens his possibilities. Knowing that fritz is the best chess engine and it's mainly used to cheat/find the cheat's evidence, it would be easily to hunt another chess engine use.
Divulging the methods of detection will better enable the cheaters to evade them.
Originally posted by aGoRessivEI believe Rybka is actually the best chess engine, grade about 3000 if run on suitable hardware.
How many ways of cheating exists? Do as many ways as chess engines exists? In that case, I think that shows the evidence in public can't change the cheater's mind, on the contrary, it shortens his possibilities. Knowing that fritz is the best chess engine and it's mainly used to cheat/find the cheat's evidence, it would be easily to hunt another chess engine use.
It is strong enough to beat anyone.
Originally posted by scandiumBelieve it or not I think we agree more than we disagree.
Your concerns are noted, but I've said my piece on that and we too will have to agree to disagree on this issue.
I think we both know that if someone matches up with engine moves, even only 2-3 moves deep at the point where they leave known books and DBs in virtually all their games they are not using engine research but are using an engine.
It is precisely at this point that most players are most likely to blunder and go down the wrong line.
The number or permutations of moves are so large that it is simply impossible to analyse all the lines in detail and the best that can be achieved is to analyse a few of your most commonly played lines and I will generously give the benefit of this subsequently occuring once in every 10 games you play in that opening or probably once in every 50 games overall. 2-3 engine assisted moves (as a result of previous analysis) in 50 games will not have much of an impact on either performance or grading but will merely delay the inevitiable defeat from the stronger player.
What I feel you are saying is that when someone claims a significant match up due to pre game research it is simply not true - the research is not pre game. I believe pre game research will never result in a significant match up which is why I have no problem with it. If you believe pre game research can result in significant matches in a majority of games then we are indeed worlds apart and will never agree.
Originally posted by poluxThe game mods have "come up with solid evidence to back up" this, and every other, decision.
So unless game mods come up with solid material to back up their decisions, this discussion abt cheating or not will go on endlessly
The discussion here will go on endlessly whether game mods publish the evidence or not. However, by publishing evidence, circumstances, analyses, and the criteria used to determine "overwhelming" guilt, we would provide cheats and prospective cheats a user's manual on how to escape engine detection at RHP.
Despite the belief of some posters, RHP forum members are not the jury, nor the judges. The owners of this website, alone, are judge and jury, and they alone decide whether the case against a suspected cheat has been proved beyond reasonable doubt on the basis of overwhelming evidence. And they alone decide upon the "punishment."
It is not in their, or anyone else's, interest to ban players on a whim.
It is only natural that secrecy will breed suspicion among some forumites, but that is a small price to pay to maintain the integrity of the system.
Threads like this are an unavoidable by-product of the game mod concept. But those with good memories will know that this thread is a pleasant walk in the park compared to the acrimony and discord that peppered these forums prior to the formation of the game mods.
This thread is not "deciding" any issue. The decision has already been made.
All that RHP players need to do to satisfy themselves that the system works is to play the game to the best of their human ability. If evceyone did that, neither these bannings nor these threads would exist.
Originally posted by wittywonkaI had a quick look at some his past games and rating profile as a result of your more detailed analysis . which i can't really pick fault with .... but for me the question that would need to be answered (and i think the Traxler debate is a red herringi) is ....
Are you convinced beyond the benefit of a doubt that ih8sens is guilty?
Originally posted by cludi
[b]"All players are given the benefit of the doubt."
I'm skeptical; I think ih8sens definitely has the benefit of a doubt.[/b]
two months or so after joining in Nov 06 he was struggling to reach 1300, and playing games like these
Game 2771842
Game 2902117
Game 2823256
to go from this to 1900+ in less than 12 months can't be anything but suspicious.
Of course this in itself isn't 'beyond reasonable doubt' evidence, but there would need to be a pretty good explanation imo .... the games above are just so bad ... especially when you compare them to this game which he offered in his profile as being typical of his 'style'
Game 4262472
Originally posted by aGoRessivEBut if they divulged precisely what the match up rate is along with which engines they used and how they went about selecting a sample of games and the type of moves that wave engine flags at them etc. then a cheat could use this information to fly under the radar. If a cheat doesn't know these details then they can't ever quite be sure how much risk of detection they are exposed to...makes it harder to cheat..IMHO.
How many ways of cheating exists? Do as many ways as chess engines exists? In that case, I think that show the evidence in public can't change the cheater's mind, on the contrary, it shortens his possibilities. Knowing that fritz is the best chess engine and it's mainly used to cheat/find the cheat's evidence, it would be easily to hunt another chess engine use.