Originally posted by Fat LadyHi Lady!
Don't see why. Black can play 15. c6, protecting the b-pawn with his queen and then castle queenside (might need to throw in dxc5 first).
14. ...dxc5 loses after 15. Rfd1 and 16.Qh4+;
14. ...c6 loses after 15.Nd3 because then ...Qf6 (and trading Queens), or ...Bf7 (and 16.Rfd1 0-0 17.cxd6 Be6 18.Qh5 Qa5 19.Rd3 Ng4 gives winning advantage to the White), or ...dxc5 16.Qh5+ g6 17.Qxe5 with big pressure on the Black.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNope; White will continue 16.Rfd1, and after ...0-0 17.cxd6 cxd6 18.c5 d5 19.Nxd5 Bxd5 20.Qd5+ Qxd5 21.Rxd5.
no player is going to be provoked into taking the knight on d5, it does not fit in with our concept of bringing our king to safety, 14...Bf7 15. Ne3 Rb8 16. Rfb1 b6 17. cxb6 axb6 18. c5 O-O, and white aint got nuffin!
If the Black goes 17. ..Qf6 18.Qxf6 gxf6 19.cxd6 Be6 c5 and the Black King is stuck in the middle.
Originally posted by black beetleSorry again RC, pint stowps hae lang lugs, the second variation is 16. ...Qf6 17.Qxf6 gxf6 etc;
Nope; White will continue 16.Rfd1, and after ...0-0 17.cxd6 cxd6 18.c5 d5 19.Nxd5 Bxd5 20.Qd5+ Qxd5 21.Rxd5.
If the Black goes 17. ..Qf6 18.Qxf6 gxf6 19.cxd6 Be6 c5 and the Black King is stuck in the middle.
hick
there is, black beetles variation was mince, he suggested 14.a4 as a deterrent to castle queenside, which was never our intention anyway, and are we really to be scared of moves like 14.a4, i think not, so after 14.a4 we play 14...Bf7 (14...Rc8 also seems reasonable) although we shall try to stick to our concept of getting the king to safety thus if, 15. Rfd1 as suggested then 15...O-O 16. cxd6 cxd6 17. c5 dxc5, with an easy life.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRC dude, after this very variation life is easy but not for the Black: so it goes 13. ...Bf6 14.a4 Bf7 15.Ne3 Rab8 or Rac8 16.Rfd1 0-0 17.cxd6 cxd6 18.c5 d5 cxd5 19.Nxd5 Bxd5 20.Qxd5 and Mr Emms has right🙂
there is, black beetles variation was mince, he suggested 14.a4 as a deterrent to castle queenside, which was never our intention anyway, and are we really to be scared of moves like 14.a4, i think not, so after 14.a4 we play 14...Bf7 (14...Rc8 also seems reasonable) although we shall try to stick to our concept of getting the king to safety thus if, 15. Rfd1 as suggested then 15...O-O 16. cxd6 cxd6 17. c5 dxc5, with an easy life.
Originally posted by black beetle15...Rf8 16.Qh5+ h6 17.Qg5 Bxd5 18.cxd5 b6 19.c6 Qf5 20.Qxf5 Rxf5 21.Rb4 a5 22.Rh4 h5 and it seems that blacks fortress is safe and a draw is in the future. I just want to go back to move 7 and say that if white is trying to prevent black from castling then a much better try that doesn't tripple whites pawns is 7.Ng5 threatening 8.Nf7 so black has to play 7...Qe7 and then comes 8.Bf7+ Kf8 and black can no longer castle.
This too drives to a forced variation: 13. ...Be6 14.a4 Qd7 15.Rab1! and the Black is over;
Originally posted by black beetleYeah, I agree that the ...Bf7 too early is flawed but after 14.a4 Rb8 15.Rfe1 b6! 16.c6 a5 then 17....Bf7 and eventually castling is great for black maybe even give him a better position instead of just an equal one.
RC dude, after this very variation life is easy but not for the Black: so it goes 13. ...Bf6 14.a4 Bf7 15.Ne3 Rab8 or Rac8 16.Rfd1 0-0 17.cxd6 cxd6 18.c5 d5 cxd5 19.Nxd5 Bxd5 20.Qxd5 and Mr Emms has right🙂
Originally posted by tomtom232and pray tell me, my dear tomtom, how is it flawed?
Yeah, I agree that the ...Bf7 too early is flawed but after 14.a4 Rb8 15.Rfe1 b6! 16.c6 a5 then 17....Bf7 and eventually castling is great for black maybe even give him a better position instead of just an equal one.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFirst reason its flawed, ex post facto my previous post, is because 14...Rc8 is better. Second, because of 15.Ne3! And then the line black beatle have in his last post.
and pray tell me, my dear tomtom, how is it flawed?
Edit: I believe 14.a4 should hey an "!" because it presents many difficulties for black. Also, my 15...Rb8 16...b6 idea fits in with the B method but its flawed, however it works rather nicely if white plays the line Fat Lady gives. Ie; 14.Rab1 Rb8 15.Rfe1 but unfortunately white can play 15.Qa3!
Originally posted by tomtom232lol, it may be slightly better, if at all, but i am not buying Rc8, its too slow and does nothing for king safety😛
First reason its flawed, ex post facto my previous post, is because 14...Rc8 is better. Second, because of 15.Ne3! And then the line black beatle have in his last post.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt takes a while to see why 14...Rc8 is good so I won't spoil your aha moment BUT I will ask you this, what is white really threatening? With the Be6 it seems as the black king is safe where it sits. Castling is not always the answer to king safety there are plenty examples where white or black doesn't castle.
lol, it may be slightly better, if at all, but i am not buying Rc8, its too slow and does nothing for king safety😛
I take back what I said about 14.a4. I think 14.Rfd1 first is even better, mainly because it puts a stop to any ....Rc8 or ...Bf7 ideas and more or less forces 14...Qd7 and then if you want you can play 15.a4 and slip into black beatles line or you can play 15.Rab1... Basically 14.Rfd1 keeps whites options open and white doesn't have to commit to a4 if a better option arises.
Edit: I would stay away from a4 altogether as 15.Rab1 makes 15...Rb8 impossible where if you switch the moves around for white and play 14.Rab1 Rb8 15.Rfd1 makes 15...Qd7 no good. All in all I think I have to agree with Mr. Emms.
Here is the line and the reasoning behind it, quite simple really and it shows how good white is in this position: 13...Be6 14.Rfd1! (threatens 15.cxd6 cxd6 16.c5) 14...Qd7 15.Rab1 (threatens Rxb7) 15...Rf8(can't play ...Qf6 because of Nxc7+!!) 16.Qa3! (threatens Rxb7 and cxd6) 16...Qc6(the only move to defend the pawn but unfortunately can't defend the other threat) 17.cxd6 cxd6 18.Ne3(threatens Rxd6) 18...Rd8 19.Qxa7 (white is now enjoying the fruit of his labour and now threatens Rxb7) 19...Rf7 20.Qa5 and I need not plow farther. Its almost like one big long combination starting from 10.b4!! And we have to go all the way back to move 8 or even move 5 for black to try to make improvements 5...fxe4 and 8...Ne7 are what I have in mind.