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  1. 09 Mar '07 19:39
    There are quite a few sites and books that explain how to win or achieve a draw from certain end game positions, take for example this minor site..

    http://www.chessville.com/instruction/Center_Squares/K_v_KBandRP.htm
    or
    http://www.chess-time.com/common_chess_game_endings.html

    I can recall a few games I've played on here where I could have won or drawn from a lost position if I had been able to get tips from sites like these during play. But would that be considered cheating? Because I am using outside knowledge to eliminate the possibility of a loss...
  2. 09 Mar '07 19:40 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by UndeadNightOrc
    There are quite a few sites and books that explain how to win or achieve a draw from certain end game positions, take for example this minor site..

    http://www.chessville.com/instruction/Center_Squares/K_v_KBandRP.htm
    or
    http://www.chess-time.com/common_chess_game_endings.html

    I can recall a few games I've played on here where I could have won ...[text shortened]... idered cheating? Because I am using outside knowledge to eliminate the possibility of a loss...
    I'm not sure ..
  3. 09 Mar '07 19:43
    I'll preface the following by saying that I do not use engame websites for help with my games.

    With that said, I wouldn't consider this to be cheating because everyone online has access to the save databases and websites. The only thing that is cheating for me would be the use of a game engine to help one make their moves and analyze their positions.
  4. 09 Mar '07 19:44
    3(b)
    You will not use chess engines, chess software, chess computers or consult any third party to assist you in any game. Chess books and databases can be consulted during play

    I have always understood 3rd party to mean a human party making this legal, but I would love to see a clarification from a moderator.
  5. Standard member Ragnorak
    For RHP addons...
    09 Mar '07 19:45
    Originally posted by UndeadNightOrc
    There are quite a few sites and books that explain how to win or achieve a draw from certain end game positions, take for example this minor site..

    http://www.chessville.com/instruction/Center_Squares/K_v_KBandRP.htm
    or
    http://www.chess-time.com/common_chess_game_endings.html

    I can recall a few games I've played on here where I could have won ...[text shortened]... idered cheating? Because I am using outside knowledge to eliminate the possibility of a loss...
    This isn't cheating. Books and databases are allowed. Endgame Tablebases (engine made databases of endgame positions) are not allowed.

    D
  6. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    09 Mar '07 19:56
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    This isn't cheating. Books and databases are allowed. Endgame Tablebases (engine made databases of endgame positions) are not allowed.

    D
    I agree with Ragnorak
  7. 09 Mar '07 20:49
    Endgames and openings seem similar in that they are known, well explored positions, the mapped chessworld, if you will. IMHO, allowing opening database use but disallowing endgame database use would make little sense.
  8. 09 Mar '07 21:14 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    I agree with Ragnorak
    Chessbase sells a '5-DVD Endgame Turbo 2' tablebase which says:

    "The DVD Endgame Turbo consists of 5 DVDs with endgame databases (Nalimov Tablebases). With the help of the Endgame Turbo, all five-and some six-piece endgames are played with absolute perfection. Likewise, Fritz handles endgames with more than six pieces much better since the program can already access the endgame knowledge during the analysis. Definitely a must-have for correspondence players, endgame theoreticians and friends of engine matches."

    Where would this program be allowed? Computer freestyle matches only? It's not allowed here?
  9. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    09 Mar '07 21:25
    Originally posted by pinkthunder
    Chessbase sells a '5-DVD Endgame Turbo 2' tablebase which says:

    "The DVD Endgame Turbo consists of 5 DVDs with endgame databases (Nalimov Tablebases). With the help of the Endgame Turbo, all five-and some six-piece endgames are played with absolute perfection. Likewise, Fritz handles endgames with more than six pieces much better since the progr ...[text shortened]... here would this program be allowed? Computer freestyle matches only? It's not allowed here?
    Tablebases differ from databases, and are not comparable to books. This is especially true becuase analysis engines must be running to access tablebases. Now, if the tablebase were actually in a form that could be printed (assuming one had sufficient ink and paper--the five piece tablebases alone take up 7 gig on my hard drive), one might be able to say that they are comparable to books.

    I can print the nearly 3 million games in my main database, and it would only require a bit over 100 cases of paper and about 200 print cartridges.
  10. 09 Mar '07 21:25 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    I agree with Ragnorak
    So that would make this site illegal?

    http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html

    It's a "database".

    Edit: Not trying to be antagonistic, I never am, I just want clarification for me and everyone else.
  11. 09 Mar '07 21:27
    Originally posted by pinkthunder
    Chessbase sells a '5-DVD Endgame Turbo 2' tablebase which says:

    "The DVD Endgame Turbo consists of 5 DVDs with endgame databases (Nalimov Tablebases). With the help of the Endgame Turbo, all five-and some six-piece endgames are played with absolute perfection. Likewise, Fritz handles endgames with more than six pieces much better since the progr ...[text shortened]... here would this program be allowed? Computer freestyle matches only? It's not allowed here?
    According to the TOS, endgame databases are allowed because it doesn't say otherwise.

    However, many people believe that what the TOS says has less authority than what is said in forums, despite the fact that it's mandatory for everyone to read the TOS but not the forums. I just wish the admins would update the TOS.

    The "unwritten rule" is that endgame databases are not allowed. But I sympathise with genuine people who haven't read such "unwritten rules".
  12. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    09 Mar '07 21:46 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by pinkthunder
    So that would make this site illegal?

    http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html

    It's a "database".

    Edit: Not trying to be antagonistic, I never am, I just want clarification for me and everyone else.
    Perhaps this site shows the inaccuracies in my generalizations. When I'm running Fritz, it begins to access 5-piece tablebases while there are still eight or more pieces on the board.

    The Shredder online endgame database does not do this. If you input any position with seven pieces, you get "no data". Six or fewer, and it tells you the number of moves to mate, or whatever.

    For example, this position from another thread:



    We learn that with white to move, it is a win in 28; the same with black to move. Only one move wins, the others draw or lose. Of course, this exact position, and the winning method is available in books. For example, Jose Capablanca, Chess Fundamentals, p.43 shows the position after white has made the correct move. Lazlo Polgar, Chess Endgames gives the position as #2031, attributing it to Capablanca.
  13. 09 Mar '07 21:49
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Tablebases differ from databases

    What?! A tablebase is a database. i.e. its an organised collection of related information.

    This is especially true becuase analysis engines must be running to access tablebases

    That is wrong. The Fritz GUI (not just the engine component) accesses the tablebases directly.

    I'm not sure where you're going with the paper/book analogy. I may not be able to print off all 7 GB of tablebases, but I could print off those useful positions that apply to my specific endgame and make a "book" out of it.
  14. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    09 Mar '07 21:52 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Varenka
    [b]Tablebases differ from databases

    What?! A tablebase is a database. i.e. its an organised collection of related information.

    This is especially true becuase analysis engines must be running to access tablebases

    That is wrong. The Fritz GUI (not just the engine component) accesses the tablebases directly.

    I'm not sure where you're ...[text shortened]... nt off those useful positions that apply to my specific endgame and make a "book" out of it.[/b]
    You may be correct. How do I access my tablebases through the Fritz GUI without turning on the engine?


    The paper/book analogy is a standard one in these discussions going back to the advent of computer databases. The analogy is often critical in the interpretation of correspondence chess rules.
  15. 09 Mar '07 21:52
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    [b]...When I'm running Fritz, it begins to access 5-piece tablebases while there are still eight or more pieces on the board.

    The Shredder online endgame database does not do this...
    So, to be clear, the site referenced *is* legal?