Originally posted by GalaxyShieldYou are right indeed, unless we are both missing it. It looks like the knight would be better on f6 than f4, so that it could move to e4 after the Re1 move. But the more I look at it, the more I like scrapping the whole Qe7+ idea and going with Na5 and trading the knight for the aggressive Bishop on c4.
Ok, I can see that. Would this line make any sense?
Qe7+ Kd1 Nf4 Re1 Ne6(?) Bxe6 Bxe6 (or fxe6 but that's a bad center island pawn it looks like) then Qxb7 picking up a pawn in looks like since the rook can't move over (yet) cause of Qxc6+. Looks interesting but probably flawed 😛.
Originally posted by BLReidYes, that looks like a good line. If Qa4+? then c6 right away and black's position is even more solid. So it looks like white would have to trade the piece (which seems as of the current position to be his only actively attacking piece). Looks good for black after that trade (Qe7+ should still be possible as well after the trades, so white might lose his castle for nothing).
You are right indeed, unless we are both missing it. It looks like the knight would be better on f6 than f4, so that it could move to e4 after the Re1 move. But the more I look at it, the more I like scrapping the whole Qe7+ idea and going with Na5 and trading the knight for the aggressive Bishop on c4.
Interesting stuff here.
White has played badly enough that Black can already get a draw quite easily through repitition. e.g.
a) 7...Na4 8.Qa4+ Nc6 9.Qb3 Na5 =
If Black doesn't want a draw, then I think best is probably 7...Be6It develops a piece, and for the cost of a pawn, Black has a good chance of blowing White away. For example,
b) 7...Be6 8.Qxb7 Ndb4 9.Bb5 Bd7 10.Kd1 Rb8 11.Re1+ Be7 12.Bxc6 Rxb7 13.Bxb7 -+ and Black has won White's queen for a rook, bishop and pawn. So obviously after 7...Be6 White cannot take the pawn on b7. Very poisonous!
This shows just how badly things can go if you go pawn grabbing in the opening, especially your opponent's QKtP.
So, after 7...Be6 it appears that White's best is 8.Nc3 or 8.0-0
The line given above is interesting. After 7. ... Qe7+ 8.Kd1 Nf4 9.d4 Ne6 10.Bxe6 fxe6 11.Re1 white seems to have ample compensation for the loss of castling rights. That makes my previous assessment a bad one.
7.... Na5 and 7. ... Be6 seem like good alternatives. I would prefer 7. ... Be6 because it both reduces the tactical threats and develops a piece. The isolated (and stillbackward) d-pawn is a potential long-term liability for white.
edit. I just saw the post above. After 7.... Be6, white should NOT take on b7, but develop 8.Nc3 and increase the pressure on d5, I think.
Originally posted by jgvaccaroThank you very much, jgvaccaro, I appreciate your words very much.
No comments on the game, just a thank you for starting this thread. This real-time kibitzing is very interesting and (potentially) very instructive. Hope to see more stuff like this in the future!
Originally posted by GalaxyShieldInstead of Re1, what if white plays Bxf7+
Ok, I can see that. Would this line make any sense?
Qe7+ Kd1 Nf4 Re1 Ne6(?) Bxe6 Bxe6 (or fxe6 but that's a bad center island pawn it looks like) then Qxb7 picking up a pawn in looks like since the rook can't move over (yet) cause of Qxc6+. Looks interesting but probably flawed 😛.
Qxf7 Re1+
? ? ? What do you think Mr. Shield?
Originally posted by Red NightI'm looking at a line that runs something like this: (but, I'm sure I am missing something.)
Instead of Re1, what if white plays Bxf7+
Qxf7 Re1+
? ? ? What do you think Mr. Shield?
after Re1+
... Be6
Qxb7 Rd8
Qxc6 Qd7
Qe4 Qd6
d4
After trying to fit in Ng5 with some punch, but I can't find it yet.
Originally posted by Mephisto2I agree.
I would prefer 7. ... Be6 because it both reduces the tactical threats and develops a piece.
As mentioned, White's isolated d-pawn may be a long term factor. Maybe. Maybe not. Personally, I'd put it out of my mind for now.
The more lines I looked at, the more I became convinced that the immediate demand for both sides is to complete their development. I may be wrong, but I think that moves like Na5 and Qe7+ (especially the latter) don't appear to have enough tactical merit. Instead I think they help White more in the development race than Black.
I'm not dogmatic about following opening principles, but there has to be good justification for "distractions" such as Qe7+. e.g.
... Qe7+ blocks the bishop on f8
Kd1 clears e1 for the rook
... Nf4 moves a developed piece
Re1 develops the rook
... Ne6 moves the knight again
d4 controlling some centre and freeing the c1 bishop
It just seems to favour White's development and not Black's. If Black has a strong tactic to refute this, then I'll stand corrected.
For now, I'll agree with Be6, with the emphasis on development.
Originally posted by VarenkaAlright, so I'm wrong again. I think I'm looking for something that I expect to find and isn't there, at least yet.
Some kind of reason for this exercise!
Presumably, there will be fireworks at some point.
Na5 is interesting.
Be6 Nc3 or Qe7+ Kd1 seem to be the sequences that set up the most potential for fireworks.
^^ analysis would be a lot easier If you could actually make this a game on RHP, i could then use that analysis board to look at things rather than copy and paste FEN everymove or so...
anyway....here's what i have come up with using my noodle and my wooden board next to me
I haven't used an engine so there might be a better defence for black....or even, a better attack for white.
1.Qe7+ Kd1 2. Nf6 Re1 3. Ne4 Qe3 4. Nc5 Qf4 5. Be6 Ng5 6. 0-0-0 Nxf7 7. Qxf7 Bxe6+ 8. Qxe6 Rxe6 9. Nxe6
Leaving white a pawn and a Queen for a Rook and a Knight....
Black however does become way ahead in development