Opening ideas for black?

position after 16. ... RxNc3

(From Hartston-Westerinen, 1966- but it's been played a bunch of times!)

Andrew Martin annotates this position from Starting Out: The Sicilian Dragon

"The exchange sacrifice is a key resource for Black and we will see it cropping up time and again throughout this book, while Black achieves a fair amount with it:
1) He demolishes White's pawn structure.
2) He weakens White's king position.
3) There is the distinct possibility of rounding up White's isolated pawns on the queenside.
4) The potential threat of Nd5 is removed and so the black knight will be much safer on f6, protecting h7 against possible checkmate.
5) He can now start to think about his own attack, rather than submissively defending and hoping for the best.
6) Endgames can be quite favourable for Black as the white rooks tend to struggle to make an impression against Black's watertight pawn structure.
All in all not bad value!"

It is generally recognized that the two center pawns and better structure give black the better ending, and it's a testament to the quality of the position that an exchange sac is so effective as to be considered almost routine.

That position reminds me of our game against Pawn Riot.

Originally posted by nimzo5
Robbie- The problem with your diagram is that no game would ever reach this position.

requisite position from my only OTB Dragon vs FM Gregory Young (when we were both sub 1800)
[fen]4nrk1/pp1bppb1/3p2p1/q5Pp/2rNPP1P/2N1B3/PPPQ4/2KR3R w - - 0 17[/fen]

let me just state that the pawn struction from my
diagrame is reached after the moves

1.e4 c5, 2.Nf3 d6, 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6



does the pawn structure not resemble my original diagram,
yes, therefore the position is reachable, this is not being pedantic,
merely correcting the assertion that the position is not reachable.

How after this position is whites pawn structure inferior, for as far as I can tell, he
has excellent prospects, a weak square at d5, more space in the centre by virtue of
his e pawn, a queenside pawn majority and potentially weak dark squares around
the black kingside. Its hard to see what black has in return.

Originally posted by wormwood
in your diagram, white hasn't moved his kingside pawns. which means he's not trying to mate black. which in turn means black IS mating white.

THIS is the reality:
[fen]4k3/pp2pp1p/3p2p1/8/4P1P1/8/PPP2P1P/4K3 b - g3 0 1[/fen]

or this:
[fen]4k3/pp2pp1p/3p2p1/8/4P2P/8/PPP2PP1/4K3 b - h3 0 1[/fen]

and after white makes those concessions, BOOM, Rxc3 ...[text shortened]... rse there are exceptions. but this is the general truth, the underlying problem for white.

i was referring to the initial position with which black signifies the dragon 5..g6, perhaps i did not make that clear enough.

In your diagram white is no worse of course, but you can't force Black to trade off all material while keeping the initial position intact. The natural course of events (white's pawn storm vs Blacks piece play) is what gives Black advantage in the endgame (very general comment btw..) I think WW is right that if White plays 0-0-0 and doesn't follow it up with aggressive can opener type play then Black should do very well in the middlegame with the long diagonal and open routes on the c file.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
let me just state that the pawn struction from my
diagrame is reached after the moves

1.e4 c5, 2.Nf3 d6, 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6

[fen]rnbqkb1r/pp2pp1p/3p1np1/8/3NP3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - 0 6[/fen]

does the pawn structure not resemble my original diagram,
yes, therefore the position is reachable, this is not being pedantic, ...[text shortened]... tially weak dark squares around
the black kingside. Its hard to see what black has in return.

well, let's try it this way: what's (your) white's next move?


or perhaps more to the point: what's white's next move that DOESN'T proceed directly towards the kind of positions with worse pawn endgame for white?

Originally posted by wormwood
well, let's try it this way: what's (your) white's next move?


or perhaps more to the point: what's white's next move that DOESN'T proceed directly towards the kind of positions with worse pawn endgame for white?

Bb5+, .. O-O, .. f4? or Bg5 first. looks still kind of cute, but certainly most willl not like f4?

ok to be fair the position we should probably be talking about is something more like here.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
let me just state that the pawn struction from my
diagrame is reached after the moves

1.e4 c5, 2.Nf3 d6, 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6

[fen]rnbqkb1r/pp2pp1p/3p1np1/8/3NP3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq - 0 6[/fen]

does the pawn structure not resemble my original diagram,
yes, therefore the position is reachable, this is not being pedantic, ...[text shortened]... tially weak dark squares around
the black kingside. Its hard to see what black has in return.

Here's a good website that that starts with the position after 5. Nc3 and does an excellent job of explaining the strategic features of the Open Sicilian.

I found it while looking for the quote from Larsen where he thinks that white intentionally giving up a center pawn for a wing pawn is strategically suspect. I agree with Larsen, and I consider the Alapin Variation to be the true acid test of the Sicilian.

http://exeterchessclub.org.uk/content/introduction-sicilian-defence

Originally posted by wormwood
well, let's try it this way: what's (your) white's next move?


or perhaps more to the point: what's white's next move that DOESN'T proceed directly towards the kind of positions with worse pawn endgame for white?

I like Bc4.

test

Originally posted by iamatiger
I used to play 1..e5, but I got a bit bored and nowadays try 1..c5 quite often . . . Here's one where it worked:

Game 7913917

That was an interesting game.

Originally posted by wormwood
well, let's try it this way: what's (your) white's next move?


or perhaps more to the point: what's white's next move that DOESN'T proceed directly towards the kind of positions with worse pawn endgame for white?

soooo we shall now take my statement out of context and shift the goal posts along
a bit, so be it, it is generally understood that white shall play f3, g4, h4 and h5, tis it
not? tis not rocket science me thinks, the plan is clear and well defined. This move
f3 makes kingside castling seem somewhat irrelevant, therefore we shall walk into
the valley of death, by playing 9. 0-0-0, taunting the dark squared bishop,
proclaiming that the open c file is naught but a façade and the ol rooky rook can
run up and down it for all we care. we shall reach a position like this,

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
Here's a good website that that starts with the position after 5. Nc3 and does an excellent job of explaining the strategic features of the Open Sicilian.

I found it while looking for the quote from Larsen where he thinks that white intentionally giving up a center pawn for a wing pawn is strategically suspect. I agree with Larsen, and I consider ...[text shortened]... id test of the Sicilian.

http://exeterchessclub.org.uk/content/introduction-sicilian-defence

excellent reference!

Originally posted by nimzo5
ok to be fair the position we should probably be talking about is something more like here.

[fen]2rq1rk1/pp1bppbp/2np1np1/8/3NP3/1BN1BP2/PPPQ2PP/2KR3R b - - 0 11[/fen]

we are on move nine Nimzo my friend, what do you play as black after whites 9. 0-0-0,
we must proceed carefully so as not to lose the thread, Nowakowski favours 9.Bc4 but
i think with Golubev that 0-0-0 is easier and not weaker than 9.Bc4.