Opening ideas for black?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
soooo we shall now take my statement out of context and shift the goal posts along
a bit, so be it, it is generally understood that white shall play f3, g4, h4 and h5, tis it
not?

we took nothing out of context, but instead made you realize aloud that practically all (reasonable, not anti-sicilian) lines lead to inferior white pawn ending.


what's your point with 9.o-o-o? it's the other big group of dragon lines and gets hit with 9...d5 iron hammer in the face faster than you can say "b-b-but that loses a pawn?". 🙂 white's in for rough waters after 9.o-o-o.

I think White has 3 viable choices here

9. Bc4
9. 0-0-0
9. g4

If 9. Bc4 Bd7, if 9. 0-0-0 I like d5, if 9. g4 nd7

I once played Golubev in an ICC qualifier, he played a very nice KID and scored a pretty win...

Originally posted by nimzo5
I think White has 3 viable choices here

9. Bc4
9. 0-0-0
9. g4

If 9. Bc4 Bd7, if 9. 0-0-0 I like d5, if 9. g4 nd7

I once played Golubev in an ICC qualifier, he played a very nice KID and scored a pretty win...

9.Bc4 main line, Bd7 is the main response. down this line is everything I've said about weaker white pawn endings.


9.o-o-o 'the other big group', black gets to play d5 immediately, and the normal 'mate or be mated' ensues, with much weaker king attack for white. if it goes to engame, the white kingside is usually vulnerable again. but so is black queenside, unlike in the mainline. in fact, perhaps white pawn endings are even better here usually? but the king attack is seldom a problem, which imo makes 9.o-o-o lines much less challenging for black than mainlines.


9.g4 I don't know these lines very well (not that I knew the others especially well either). the g4 lines after o-o-o have some crazy looking positions for black, which still hold (until a better endgame). if there's some specific points related to g4 before castling, I wouldn't know.

but I'd assume uncastled white has a big chance of getting caught with his pants down, and black might even get away with crazy stuff because of that. and lets face it, what do dragon players love more that trying out crazy stuff? that list is very short.

that said, 9.g4 Nd7 looks very odd to me. what are you gonna do after the white pawns crash through and you'd need something to cover h7 from the h-file battery? you probably won't be able to accept the h-pawn sac either?

oh, just looked at the db, and saw 9.g4 is that strange looking Be6 Nxe6 fxe6 line doubling the e-pawns. right. well, never played it, have no idea. but I think I remember seeing topalalov play it some years ago, and if memory serves the commentators said it was fine?

g4 nd7 is a tricky line, Be6 is more common obviously- the idea being that because White is attacking a bit prematurely a quick series of swap offs blunts the attack-
example.

if White launches an immediate h4 then Black does a wholesale swap off of pieces Nxd4 Bxd4 Bxd4 Qxd4 and then Qb6 type stuff..

Originally posted by nimzo5
if White launches an immediate h4 then Black does a wholesale swap off of pieces Nxd4 Bxd4 Bxd4 Qxd4 and then Qb6 type stuff..

oh, right, right... that does ring a bell.


obviously this is something I need to add to my training db. 🙂

Originally posted by wormwood
we took nothing out of context, but instead made you realize aloud that practically all (reasonable, not anti-sicilian) lines lead to inferior white pawn ending.


what's your point with 9.o-o-o? it's the other big group of dragon lines and gets hit with 9...d5 iron hammer in the face faster than you can say "b-b-but that loses a pawn?". 🙂 white's in for rough waters after 9.o-o-o.

you wish! just pony up the ninth move for black and well see whose pawn structure is
inferior! 9...d5, ha, iron hammer? more like a fly buzzing around my Chardonnay.
While it is apparently blacks best move it allows white to exploit his pluses,
strategically! 10 exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 and now the strategically brilliant 12.Bd4!!,
and what has happened to that great pawn structure black was hoping for?
vanquished to the depths of Mordor!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you wish! just pony up the ninth move for black and well see whose pawn structure is
inferior! 9...d5, ha, iron hammer? more like a fly buzzing around my Chardonnay.
While it is apparently blacks best move it allows white to exploit his pluses,
strategically! 10 exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 and now the strategically brilliant 12.Bd4!!,
and what ...[text shortened]... ppened to that great pawn structure black was hoping for?
vanquished to the depths of Mordor!

Robbie, I'm afraid you are on your own on this one. I used to play the Dragon, praying people would play like you, but all I saw for 4 years was Closed Sicilians, peppered with a few Alapins Sicilians and a stray wing gambit or two.

Although there are some tough new lines for White, 9. ... d5! is still a viable and energetic response for Black.

And Chardonnay? I assume your local wine shop had empty shelves where the Mosel Rieslings used to be, and you had no choice! 😳

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
Robbie, I'm afraid you are on your own on this one. I used to play the Dragon, praying people would play like you, but all I saw for 4 years was Closed Sicilians, peppered with a few Alapins Sicilians and a stray wing gambit or two.

Although there are some tough new lines for White, 9. ... d5! is still a viable and energetic response for Blac ...[text shortened]... cal wine shop had empty shelves where the Mosel Rieslings used to be, and you had no choice! 😳

i see you will not take my word for it, what about Scotlands Jonathan Rowson? does
one suppose his opponent was also praying for him to play in this way?

Rowson v Mah 1999 1-0

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i see you will not take my word for it, what about Scotlands Jonathan Rowson? does
one suppose his opponent was also praying for him to play in this way?

umm, black trapped his rook. (rowson's) prayer answered. then sealed the rook's fate with the Qc6 blunder. nothing to do with the opening.

Originally posted by wormwood
umm, black trapped his rook. (rowson's) prayer answered. then sealed the rook's fate with the Qc6 blunder. nothing to do with the opening.

yes he did, and yes it was nothing to do with the opening, but its a simple way to play for white. I thought the exchange sac somewhat ironic, all things considered 😉

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i see you will not take my word for it, what about Scotlands Jonathan Rowson? does
one suppose his opponent was also praying for him to play in this way?

Rowson v Mah 1999 1-0
[pgn] [Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [PlyCount "55"] 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. ...[text shortened]... 23. Bc4 Qc6 24. Bd5 Qa6 25. Bxa8 Ra1+ 26. Kd2 Qd6+ 27. Qd3 Qf4+ 28. Ke2 *[/pgn]

White's approach has been shown to be an early drawn position during an Iranian tournament in 2008. Here's the game in full (check your database to verify):

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i see you will not take my word for it, what about Scotlands Jonathan Rowson? does
one suppose his opponent was also praying for him to play in this way?

Rowson v Mah 1999 1-0
[pgn] [Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [PlyCount "55"] 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. ...[text shortened]... 23. Bc4 Qc6 24. Bd5 Qa6 25. Bxa8 Ra1+ 26. Kd2 Qd6+ 27. Qd3 Qf4+ 28. Ke2 *[/pgn]

I should add that if you ask Rowson, I am pretty confident he is going to agree with me. He was not playing the Yugoslav Attack to get a better ending.

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
White's approach has been shown to be an early drawn position during an Iranian tournament in 2008. Here's the game in full (check your database to verify):

[pgn][Event "IRI-ch 18th"]
[Site "Tehran"]
[Date "2008.02.25"]
[Round "12"]
[White "Sharbaf, Mohsen"]
[Black "Ahmadinia, Ebrahim"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B20"]
[WhiteElo "2407"]
[Blac ase"]
[SourceDate "2008.05.06"]

1. e4 c5 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

Lol, me thinks the Sicilian player might have something to say about that. I have given
up on databases, they lead me astray every time, get me into positions i dont know
how or why i got there.

Looking at the Rowson game briefly, I noticed that on move 17 Black moves his f rook instead of his a rook - which just tells me at that point he was out of book whereas Rowson continued to crank out his lines for many more moves. If you are playing the Blackside of the Dragon you had better be more booked up...

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Lol, me thinks the Sicilian player might have something to say about that. I have given
up on databases, they lead me astray every time, get me into positions i dont know
how or why i got there.

Sorry about that one, I couldn't resist! I don't know why they bothered to sit down for that one, except that it must have been required as part of the tournament.