PAWN RIOT VS The Forum Move 23

Originally posted by moteutsch
I'm sorry to say that we're lost. Yes we've put all his pieces on the diagnol, and yes, we've shattered his pawn structure, but face it: we're down an Exchange and two pawns. We have no initiative. We have no space. The g7 bishop is shooting blanks.

I vote for [b]1-0.[/b]

No initiative? We have and will keep the initiative for a while yet.
Shooting blanks? Well, possibly because pieces aren't allowed guns.

23.exd5 Qxc4 24.Qxc4 Rxc4 25.Rd1 Nc7 26.d6 exd6 27.Rb8+ Kh7 28.Rb7 and 28...Be8 stops 29.Rxa7(allows Nb5)

Long, long edit:
I am having a very difficult time finding a good move after 23.exd5 Nd6 24.c5 Qxc5 25.Qxc5 Rxc5 26.Rc1 Nc4 27.Rb8+ Kh7 28.Bg1 Rxd5 29.c3

Other tries:
23.exd5 Nd6 24.c5 Qxc5 25.Qxc5 Rxc5 26.Rc1 Rxd5 27.Rb8+ Kh7 28.c3 Nc4 29.Bg1 (transposition to above)

23.exd5 Nd6 24.c5 Qxc5 25.Qxc5 Rxc5 26.Rc1 Kh7 This is different. 27.Bg1 Nb5! 28.Nb3 Rc4!
So, how about 27.Bf2 Nb5 28.Nb3 Rc4 29. Nd2 Rc8? Looked at giving the exhange back as in 27.Bf2 Nb5 28.Nb3 Rc4 29.Nd2 Bxg2+ 30.Kxg2 Rb4+ 31.Nb3 Rf4 32.Re1 (Rxf3 doesn't look good)e6 33.Bf2 Rc4 34.d6 And yuck.

Improvement for white?
23.exd5 Nd6 24.c5 Qxc5 25.Qxc5 Rxc5 26.Rc1 Kh7 27.Bf2 Nb5 28.Nf5! Bxb2+ 29.Kxb2 Rxd5 30.Re5 Re1 I don't think we can hold this one.

Improvement for black?
23.exd5 Nd6 24.c5 Qxc5 25.Qxc5 Rxc5 26.Rc1 Kh7 27.Bf2 Rxd5 28.c3

In my opinion, it seems whenever white gets c3 in we lose the majority of our play and it becomes very difficult to find a plan afterwards. Waiting for others to contribute some analysis.

Going back to 23.exd5 Nd6 24.c5 Qxc5 25.Qxc5 Rxc5 26.Rc1 How about 26...Nb5 instead of ...Nc4?

Improvement for white in Qxc4 line?
23.exd5 Qxc4 24.Qxc4 Rxc4 25.Rd1 Nc7 26.Rb8+ Kh7 27.Rb7 Nxd5 28.Bg1 Not really an improvement. 27.Rd8 Nxd5 28.Bg1 Nc3 29.Re1 Ba4 30.Rxe7 Rb4 31.Re1 Nb5 32.c3 Nxc3 33.Rc8 Nb5 34.Rd8 draw

ok, I still think white has better chances with 26.d6

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
I agree. I will post some of my analysis when I get home from work, but I think any type of general comments should be backed up with some analysis. It's a complete waste of your time and Russ' space to post something like, "We're lost LOLZ! RESIGN!" or "I like ...Nd6 because it activates our knight." Prove it with some analysis, and then we can get some co ...[text shortened]... e we reach a nice ending, or maybe he consolidates and beats us! Let's work it out! 😀

I do not think that stating a mere fact that activating a Knight is a sound plan is non-constructive. I do agree that at least there should be something like a small analysis to go along with the plan to activate the Knight, but nevertheless general ideas are very helpfull even in complicated situations like this one.

Basically I think there are two lines we can choose:

a) 23. ... Qxc4 grabbing the pawn immediately and recapturing the Queen exchange our Rook (attacking both the white Knight and c2), with the plan to move our Knight to c7 (putting some pressure on the d5 pawn and opening the possibility to play Nb5)

b) 23. ... Nd6, immediately activating the Knight and forcing the pawn move to c5 (I cannot find any other likely candidates for white) and the Queen exchange on the c5 square (recaptured by our Rook).

So without doing any further immediate analysis, the main differences between both variations are that in line (a) our Rook is on the c4 square, pressuring both the white Knight and c2 and in line (b) our Rook is on c5, attacking the d5 pawn, and our Knight is placed on d6.

in line (a) white has two options that I can think of:
(a.1.) 25. Rb7 Ba4 26. Rxe7 (26. Kb2 is also a possibility. After 26. ... Bxd4 27. Bxd4 Rxd4 28. Rxa7 I think we have almost equalized, with enough targets (pawns) on the board to build up some good plans)Nd6 27. Kb1 (27. c3 is also playable but seems to draw after Rxc3 28. Kb1 Nc8 29. Re4 Nd6) Bxd4 28. Bxd4 Rxd4 = (one of the reasons why the Black Rook on c4 is well placed)
(a.2.) 27. Rd1 Nc7 28. d6 with the idea to exchange the problem pawn for a problematic pawn for black 28. ... exd6 unclear. I have problems finding the right plan for Black here, but it is also difficult for white I think.


in line (b) the most logical plans for white are
(b.1) to move the Rook to c1 with the idea to play c3 (freeing the Rook on b2 from the pin) and giving some support to the white Knight on d4 at the same time.
(b.2) to play the King to b1, freeing the Rook from the pin.

(b.1.) Rc1 Nc4 27. Rb8+ Kh7 28. Bf2 Rxd5 29. c3 e5 30. Nb3 Rd3 and we win back another pawn (on f3) with a passed pawn of our own (e5).

So looking at all these variations the basic choises we have are to go for placing our Rook on c4 (line a) or c5 (line b).
Personally I am leaning towards line a, because it brings us closer to equality. But, I must admit that line (a.2.) with the exchange on d6 is not what we should be aiming at.
Perhaps someone can give some feedback to see if I missed any plans / moves.

the rook is better on C4.

I'll vote for Qxc4

I vote 23. ...Qxc4

Originally posted by Sophy
the rook is better on C4.

I'll vote for Qxc4

really? I was thinking about 23... Nd6 24. c5 Qxc5 25. Qxc5 Rxc5 and white can't save his e-pawn

Why would he move his rook to c1?

What about

23. exd5 Nd6 24. c5 Qxc5 25. Rxc5 Re1 26. Kh7 Rb4 27. a5 Rb3...

Or...

What about a direct Qc5 advance?!

23. exd5 Qc5! 24. Nb3 Qxc4 25. Qxc4 Rxc4 25. Bxa7 Bf5

What would you all say to that?

I think this variation makes the most sense:

1... Nd6 2. c5 Qxc5 3. Rxc5 Rxc5 4. Rb8+ Kh7 5. Kb1 Rxd5 6. c3

White has a big advantage.

Originally posted by moteutsch
I think this variation makes the most sense:

1... Nd6 2. c5 Qxc5 3. Rxc5 Rxc5 4. Rb8+ Kh7 5. Kb1 Rxd5 6. c3

White has a big advantage.

I disagree completely that White has a big advantage here. After 23...Nd6 24. c5 Qxc5 25. Qxc5 Rxc5 26. Rb8+ Kh7 27. Kb1 Rxd5 28. c3 Nc4 29. Bf2 (29. Bc1 is also meet by ...e5 and ...Rd3) e5! 30. Nb3 a5!

I've posted this variation elsewhere, but Black is completely okay. Maybe 29. Bc1 is a better try, or maybe 30. Nc2 is a better try, but Black should be fine. The c3-square is weak, White's king is a little airy, and f3 is also a problem. Black's two bishops are quite good here.

Originally posted by EinsteinMind
Why would he move his rook to c1?

What about

23. exd5 Nd6 24. c5 Qxc5 25. Rxc5 Re1 26. Kh7 Rb4 27. a5 Rb3...

Or...

What about a direct Qc5 advance?!

23. exd5 Qc5! 24. Nb3 Qxc4 25. Qxc4 Rxc4 25. Bxa7 Bf5

What would you all say to that?

because in the first variation white has lost his advantage after Rxc2

second line does need more consideration however:

In fact i'm thinking 23...Qc5 followed by 24...Nd6 and 25...Nxc4 is strong in a lot of variations. This may be my new favorite line. Will analyze some more. Your given line does seem to help us equalize better.
here's a zinger:
23.exd5 Qc5 24.Qd3 Nd6 25.Nc6 Bxb2+ 26.Kxb2 Nxc4+ winning

I really like Qc5. I'm afraid I get lost in trying to follow all the variations, so I won't pretend to have an intellegent thought out explanation. I like it because it blockades the c pawn, making Nd6 better move.

My vote: Qc5

This is a really important point in the game I think…

The consequences of Nd6 c5 should be well understood especially since it forces the queens off. Likewise the consequences of Qxc4 should be understood. Looking at the position at first glance, I would strongly expect that these endgames are losing – perhaps Tony is a better judge though of this position since he knows Dragon positions much better than I do.

Doing these lines in my head so I have not extended my analysis…

Regarding Qc5:
What happens if Nb3? Qxc4 Qxc4 Rxc4… (?)
If that line works, what happens if Rd1 Nd6 Qb4? Then Nxc4 Qxc5 Rxc5… (?)

I hope that Qc5 works because otherwise I will be confused with how Black could have done better – because all moves stemming 14…b5 seem to me as correct. :-)

I have not followed the game closely, but so far, well done! :-)

What would have happened if:
14. Nxb5
18. c5
20. Kc1 [this may have been somewhat addressed in prior discussion]

What happens if Nb3? Qxc4 Qxc4 Rxc4… (?)

I was thinking Nb3 Bxc3 Nxc5 Bxb2+ Kxb2

We'd regain the rook exchange to make that even, but I think we'd be in a bad pawn position.

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here, but I think this would be better than the last line I gave.

Nb3 Qxc4 Qxc4 Bxb2+ Kxb2 Rxc4

We still win the exchange while taking an extra pawn, as well as isolating white's d pawn. But then I'd think that white would take our a pawn, creating another passed pawn problem.