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  1. 01 Jul '09 16:57
    Continued From Thread 114123.

    35. ... Ne3 36.Kb2

    Black To Move



    The Full Game

  2. Standard member ptobler
    Patzer
    01 Jul '09 20:49 / 6 edits
    So our plan had 36...Nf5, but how about 36...Ng2?

    Part of the plan was:

    36 Kb2 Nf5 37 Nxf5 gxf5 38 Rxe7 Kg6 39 Kb3 Rxh4 40 c4

    Maybe we might also like to think about how to counteract a plan of his of marching his king up the b-file, in concert with appropriate movements of his a-pawn, to undermine the ability of our rook to protect our own a-pawn?

    From macpo, from the last thread:

    "36. Kb2 Ng2 37. Kb3 Ra6 (and here we find back what I suggested in one of my posts) 38. Rxe7 Kg7 and here white can play 39. Re4 (there is no f5 pawn...) protecting h4."

    So macpo had seriously considered 36...Ng2, and, yes, on the evidence presented, it definitely looks inferior to 36...Nf5.

    Continuing on with the 36...Nf5 plan given above:

    How about 40. Rxa7, or 41. Rxa7?
  3. Standard member ptobler
    Patzer
    02 Jul '09 04:43
    I vote 36...Nf5 provisionally
  4. 02 Jul '09 05:09 / 2 edits
    Please go check my post on previous thread. I think Nf5 is better, BUT he will probably not play Nxf5, but c3.
    That makes things much more difficult for us. The outcome of my previous post is that we will struggle for draw after

    35 . … Ne3 36. Kb2 Nf5 37. c3 Nxd4 38. cxd4 Kg7 39. Kb3 Ra5 40. Rxe7

    (the best line for both of us I would say).
  5. 02 Jul '09 13:58
    Originally posted by Macpo
    Please go check my post on previous thread. I think Nf5 is better, BUT he will probably not play Nxf5, but c3.
    That makes things much more difficult for us. The outcome of my previous post is that we will struggle for draw after

    35 . … Ne3 36. Kb2 Nf5 37. c3 Nxd4 38. cxd4 Kg7 39. Kb3 Ra5 40. Rxe7

    (the best line for both of us I would say).
    I don't think 37...Nxd4 is a very accurate move for us.... We need our knight in this endgame.
  6. 02 Jul '09 14:04
    I know it's not very pleasant, but I think it's necessary...
  7. 02 Jul '09 14:25 / 1 edit
    As i know RHP players, including myself, are pretty lazy; I repost my previous analysis on the position...

    A few remarks

    - First, I think after 1. ... Ne3, 2. Kb2 is better: I may gain one tempo, and also protect a2, enables further Kb3 threatening our rook (which can be pretty annoying actually!); and in the many cases it does not bring anything, it just leads to transpositions with further c3… So I very much believe Pawn riot will play Kb2, and lines with c3 first, enabling Rxa2 are not very likely to happen I would say.
    So I follow with Kb2.


    ==== 35. ... Ne3 36. Kb2 36. … Nf5

    Now various options are available to White.
    I checked 37. Nc6 a few weeks ago, it was not very good.

    37. Nxf5. apparently leading to good positions for Black.
    Especially after 37. Nxf5 gxf5 38. Rxe7.

    Nevertheless, after 36. c3 instead of Kb2, there is also 38. Rd4, which we did not consider so much… I just mention it to confirm what we previously said though, cause I think it’s bad after 38. … Rxd4 39. cxd4 f4 (preventing white playing f4, and therefore enabling the attack of white g pawn.


    So I would say the main line effectively is

    37. c3


    - Here RS considers 37. … Nxh4 is bad, because of further Re4.
    for instance: 37. ... Nxh4 38. Rxe7
    if 38. ... Kg7 39. Re4 threatens the Nh4, while at the same time threatening Ne6+ taking the Rook a4.
    I tried to go a bit further, to check if there was not something like an interesting quality sacrifice to make but no.
    For instance 39. Re4 Rxd4 40. cxd4 Nxf3 and black will struggle for draw.
    and by the way, instead of Re4, there is Ne6+, which leads even more clearly to bad positions.

    And yes, if 38. Kg8 leads at least to draw after Re8, but probably worse given the situation.
    [If not, if we have nothing better, it should still be considered then!]

    Another possible thing was 37. ... Nxh4 38. Rxe7 38. Nf5
    this line is not absolutely bad, but I am not sure we can get more than a draw...
    after the most logical:
    38. .... Nf5 39. Rxf7+ Kg8 40. Rd7



    We have a good h5 pawn, but by now the Rook can play on g and h ranks, and if the black king comes to the rook, the rook goes to the h file.

    For instance
    h4 41. Kb3 Rxd4 42. cxd4 h3

    and even, I am not sure I am playing best moves for White. So it is at least draw, probably loss.

    So 37. ... Nxh4 is pretty much refuted. It’s too early for Rxd4 sacrifices (with the hope for black to take f3 and g5 with his knight); they imply the real weakening of our king side, and our king; and our pawns will be caught by the rook.

    and this is pretty bad news I would say…

    I think the big decision we have to do is not now (we can vote Ne3 pretty clearly), but in a few moves, at 37. Nxh4 which was previously overestimated.


    Until now, I did nothing but confirming or criticizing Rs ideas… let me try to propose further possibilities for that 37th move… I think this is now the difficulty to be overcome!




    Let’s make the diagnosis first.
    - We have a potentially good h5 pawn. This is our plan.
    - We have a pretty weak 7th rank, with the potential coming of the white Knight to attack our King with the rook. The situation of our king is not comfortable.
    - Without our h pawn threat, White is slowly but very comfortably developing his position… towards easy win! Kb3 soon becomes problematic! And then c pawn will be quick to promote… this due to the fact that our rook is somewhat weak now. And can be trapped or attacked by white who will get tempi from it…
    -
    - Our e7 pawn is hanging.

    To tell it more clearly, we apparently have a pretty bad situation!

    - we also have many candidate moves on 37th move.

    let’s check them systematically:
    - a5 is refuted after Kb3.
    - a6 is very passive, I would say. For instance 37. … a6 38. Kb3 Ra5 forced 39. f4 (threatening further Kb4, and the black rook is trapped) So Rc5 is necessary, and after Kb4, we just waste a looooot of time.
    - Rc4 doesn’t really make any sense.
    - e5 is pretty bad, after 37. … e5 38. Nxf5 gxf5 39. Rxf7+ Kg8 40. Rxf5.
    - f6 only sucks, after gxf6.
    - Kg7 and Kg8 enable Kb3, and once more, our rook becomes pretty bad. For instance: 37. … Kg7 38. Kb3 Ra6 and now he can just take the knight, since we definitely won’t come back on the fourth rank to attack his h pawn. 39. Nxf5 gxf5 40. Rxe7 and the whole 4th rank is defended; we struggle for nothing but a draw. And we have to struggle a lot. Everything sucks in our position.

    If we follow our variation, the only serious possibility at move 37 is therefore Nxd4, I would say. This simplifies, to avoid all Nd6 threats.
    37. … nxd4. White has to take back, so two possibilities.
    Taking back with the rook makes the endgame pretty ok for us. After 38. Rxd4 Rxd4 39. cxd4 our pawn majority on the king side is superior to his c pawn, I would say, especially as his king is at the complete opposite. (our king can stop the c pawn.

    38. cxd4 is therefore much more likely.
    And then we have the quiet Kg7.

    38. cxd4 Kg7 39. Kb3 Ra5 40. Rxe7
    And we can reasonably struggle for a draw (candidate moves Rf5; a6).

    Black to play.


    Actually, I think this is still the best line we have by now ; and it is also the most tricky for Pawn riot (even if “tricks” probably don’t worth much with that guy, Nxf5 might be expected, and that would be good for us).


    we may back one move earlier (36) to find better; but it’s not obvious!




    One big problem is the possibility of Nd6, after there is no more e7 pawn.

    - a5 is just bad because of Kb3 again
    - a6 too passive.
    - e5 leads to Nd6 and this is at best a draw for us: 36. … e5 37. Nd6 Kg8 38. Re8+ Kh7 39. Re7 etc. but white can certainly improve his situation from there.
    - and we come back to Kg7 or Kg8. might be reasonable, not extremely convincing.
    If someone can check this…



    By the way, I just found a matting pattern for white:
    after several mostly necessary moves, white can have his Knight on f6 and rook on 8th rank (arab mate in French).
    There is the necessary line 1. Rxe7 Kg7 2. Nd6+ Kg8 3. Re8+ Kh7 4. Nf8+ Kg7 5. Nd7
    and whatever black plays, Nf6 and Rg8 are coming…


    So finally, the line I prefer would be
    35 . … Ne3 36. Kb2 Nf5 37. c3 Nxd4 38. cxd4 Kg7 39. Kb3 Ra5 40. Rxe7


    Black to play.




    Damn, and now that I have given my evening to RHP, I am just going to atone in my bed.
  8. 02 Jul '09 14:42 / 1 edit
    Since our e-pawn is hanging, I owuld protect and I would vote for 36.... a5,as long as the knight is attacked by the black rook he won't take on e7.

    I am sure this is a draw
  9. 02 Jul '09 14:44 / 3 edits
    EDIT: sorry Sophy i just edited this post, seeing my mistake!
  10. 02 Jul '09 14:45 / 3 edits
    Where do we rose a rook. We put it on c4 and it is portected by the black knight on e3, it serve something.

  11. 02 Jul '09 14:52 / 14 edits
    Actually why not! looks interesting! especially after a4+

    What happens after 36. ... a5 37. c3 ?




    37. ... Nf5 becomes impossible, because it has to cover c4 or the rook is effectively lost.

    37. ... e5 would lead to mate patterns
    as Nf6+Rg8 are coming after 38. Ne6 Kg8 39. Re8+ Kh7 40. Nf8+ Kg7 41. Nd7



    I put a fen here, because I think we have to keep in mind that the possibility of Ne6 is very annoying for us, as it leads pretty necessarily to this position. Other variations (especially after Rxe7) lead to very similar and very annoying positions (with white rook on e8). and to cover f6 we have to play either Nd5, white answer being Nxe5; or R f4 and we lose quality for the Knight and a pawn. (I may be doing mistakes though )
    That's why I want to exchange Knights basically (if I remember correctly my previous post).


    37. ... Rc4/Kg7or Kg8 and he can play 38. Rxe7 quietly. with the further opportunity of Ne6, again.

    Every body is very welcome to disagree, of course!
  12. 02 Jul '09 16:20 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Macpo
    Actually why not! looks interesting! especially after a4+

    What happens after 36. ... a5 37. c3 ?


    [fen]8/3Rpp1k/6p1/p5Pp/r2N3P/2P1nP2/PK6/8[/fen]

    37. ... Nf5 becomes impossible, because it has to cover c4 or the rook is effectively lost.

    37. ... e5 would lead to mate patterns
    as Nf6+Rg8 are coming after 38. Ne6 Kg8 39. Re8+ Kh7 40. Nf8+ Kg7 41. th the further opportunity of Ne6, again.

    Every body is very welcome to disagree, of course!
    I remember hearing in the wind that the h=pawn is hanging, if he move that knight, can't we take the pawn ? NOw we wouldbe trading pawn to the endgame. it look very good....


    As long as we have a pawn, we have chance for victory, if n ot, we must draw.

    I know our poor king will be very lonely, but there is no problem, it may be our best try, as trying to win may be an error here.
  13. 02 Jul '09 16:40
    I am not sure we can. When would you do that? if 36 a5 37. c3 e5 38. Ne6 Rxh4 then 39. Rxf7+
    and our poor king is very lonely...
  14. 02 Jul '09 17:25
    How about Rc4 attacking white's c pawn followed by e5 to dislodge the white knight? Then we win the white c pawn.

    White can't move his rook off of the e file because we take his knight if he does.

    If white plays c3, we reply with ..Nd1 doubling the attack on the c pawn. He can play Ne2 to protect his c pawn. But, if he does, we snatch his h pawn with our rook which creates a passed h pawn for us.

    I apologize if someone else has proposed this already. I have not read the other posts.
  15. 02 Jul '09 17:55 / 1 edit
    That's interesting!
    I am not sure it will be enough though, because of the same Ne6 trick:

    36 . ... Rc4 37. Kb3 e5 38. Ne6 Kg8 39. Rd8+ Kh7 40. Nf8+ Kg7 41. Nd7

    and White seems to have an advantage. But the situation is not completely clear; and I am not sure this variation is completely necessary. So it certainly deserves more in depth analyse. (as all Ne6 lines I would say).

    EDIT: effectively, one interest of this line is that after 38. Ne6, Black can play Rxc2+, gaining one tempo with check, before Kg8. So that would be interesting!