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PAWN RIOT VS The Forum Move 36

Standard memberpaulbuchmanfromfics
Only Chess 01 Jul '09 16:57
  1. Subscriberptobler
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    02 Jul '09 21:34
    I provisionally change my vote to 36...a5
  2. c
    Standard memberclandarkfire
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    02 Jul '09 23:2414 edits
    Originally posted by Macpo
    That's interesting!
    I am not sure it will be enough though, because of the same Ne6 trick:

    36 . ... Rc4 37. Kb3 e5 38. Ne6 Kg8 39. Rd8+ Kh7 40. Nf8+ Kg7 41. Nd7

    and White seems to have an advantage. But the situation is not completely clear; and I am not sure this variation is completely necessary. So it certainly deserves more in depth analyse. (as a ...[text shortened]... , Black can play Rxc2+, gaining one tempo with check, before Kg8. So that would be interesting!
    Actually, white is losing after 41...Rd4

    For example:

    Invert BoardPGNHeaders


    White will lose the knight.

    Edit-HELP
  3. c
    Standard memberclandarkfire
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    02 Jul '09 23:47
    Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
    Continued From Thread 114123.

    35. ... Ne3 36.Kb2

    Black To Move

    [fen]8/p2Rpp1k/6p1/6Pp/r2N3P/4nP2/PKP5/8[/fen]
    [SetUp "1"]

    The Full Game

    [pgn]1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.Kb1 Nc4 13.Bxc4 Rxc4 14.g4 b5 15.b3 b4 16.bxc4 bxc3 17.Qxc3 Qc7 ...[text shortened]... .Rd2 Rb4 30.Nb3 Ra4 31.Kb2 Ne4+ 32.Rd4 Nxf2 33.Rxd7 Nd1+ 34.Kc1 Bxd4 35.Nxd4 Ne3 36.Kb2 [/pgn]
  4. Subscriberptobler
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    03 Jul '09 01:10
    Sorry - I won't vote for the time being. I need a good look at the position - so my vote is retracted
  5. M
    Standard memberMacpo
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    03 Jul '09 01:35
    Originally posted by clandarkfire
    Actually, white is losing after 41...Rd4

    For example:

    [pgn]
    [FEN "8/p2Rpp1k/6p1/6Pp/r2N3P/4nP2/PKP5/8 b - - 2 36"]


    1. Rc4 2. Kb3 e5 3. Ne6 Kg8 4. Rd8+ Kh7 5. Nf8+ Kg7 6. Nd7 Rd4 7.c3 Rd6 8.a4 Ng2 9.Kc4 Nf4 10. a5 Rd1 11.a6 Ne6 [/pgn]

    White will lose the knight.

    Edit-HELP
    Rd4 is impossible because of c3 covering the d4 square no?

    (if instead of 2.Kb3, you go for 2.c3, more likely I think)
  6. S
    Standard memberSophy
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    03 Jul '09 03:20
    I thjink I would play a5 just because it look like an engine move, but Rc4 look good enough, but more naturel.


    Who would dare to try a5 here?
  7. M
    Standard memberMacpo
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    03 Jul '09 03:45
    If people could write down the lines they are thinking of, that would be interesting.
  8. S
    Standard memberSophy
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    04 Jul '09 00:44
    I am not thinking of only, just one move.
  9. c
    Standard memberclandarkfire
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    04 Jul '09 00:48
    Originally posted by Macpo
    Rd4 is impossible because of c3 covering the d4 square no?

    (if instead of 2.Kb3, you go for 2.c3, more likely I think)
    You are right - the line I was analysing did not include c3.
  10. Subscriberptobler
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    04 Jul '09 09:555 edits
    Macpo said "So I would say the main line effectively is

    37. c3


    - Here RS considers 37. … Nxh4 is bad, because of further Re4.
    for instance: 37. ... Nxh4 38. Rxe7
    if 38. ... Kg7 39. Re4 threatens the Nh4, while at the same time threatening Ne6+ taking the Rook a4.
    I tried to go a bit further, to check if there was not something like an interesting quality sacrifice to make but no.
    For instance 39. Re4 Rxd4 40. cxd4 Nxf3 and black will struggle for draw."

    We cannot do 36...Nf5 37 c3 Nxh4 38 Rxe7 Kg7 39 Re4 Nxf3 40 Ne6+!
    and we are in trouble... unless we can find something similar with our king moved out of the way of the check
  11. M
    Standard memberMacpo
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    04 Jul '09 10:02
    That's sounds great!!
    I take my board to check right now...
  12. M
    Standard memberMacpo
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    04 Jul '09 10:114 edits
    The only serious (EDIT: not sure) possibility is probably 38. ... Kg8, as I mentioned earlier, and this way, we might have reasonable draw chances.

    For instance 36. ... Nf5 37. c3 Nxh4 38. Rxe7 Kg8

    and here, if

    39. Re8+ Kh7 (Kg7 would be bad, because of the Ne6+ threat for instance after 40. Re4 Nxf3 41. Ne6+ and our rook is hanging);

    And White can take a three repetition draw, by simply playing Re7.

    39. Re4 would lead to Nxf3 and then the three repetitions are not possible anymore (39. ... Nxf3 40. Re8+ Kh7 41. Re7 Nxg5).

    39. Kb3 enables us to bring our rook back on the sixth rank, to protect us from Ne6+ threats.
    Or we can consider a rook sacrifice on the Night, since we'll get one pawn back for it.
    I don't study this line further, but it looks good for us.

    So I think

    36. ... Nf5 37. c3 Nxh4 38. Rxe7 Kg8 39. Re8+ Kh7 40. Re7 Kg8 41. Re8+ etc.
    leads to a draw (and this is not bad, given our position I would say.)

    EDIT: ptobler also mentions a quality sacrifice, with the hope to bring our h pawn to promotion... I didn't mention it, it would enable us to play Kg7, but I am not sure it holds...)

    (and still there is the possibility of 36. ... Rc4, if someone can check this).
  13. Subscriberptobler
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    04 Jul '09 10:241 edit
    Improvements on the line below? I'm sure there are plenty!

    36...Nf5 37 c3 Nxh4 38 Rxe7 Kg8 39 Re8+ Kg7 40 Re4 Nf5 41 Ne6+ fxe6 42 Rxa4 h4 43 Rg4 h3 44 Rg1 Nh4 45 Rh1 (45 Rf1 h2) 45...Nxf3 46 Rxh3 Nxg5

    and we are down a pawn - this isn't working out - can anyone see improvements for us ... and for him?
  14. M
    Standard memberMacpo
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    04 Jul '09 10:306 edits
    Originally posted by ptobler
    Improvements on the line below? I'm sure there are plenty!

    36...Nf5 37 c3 Nxh4 38 Rxe7 Kg8 39 Re8+ Kg7 40 Re4 Nf5 41 Ne6+ fxe6 42 Rxa4 h4 43 Rg4 h3 44 Rg1 Nh4 45 Rh1 (45 Rf1 h2) 45...Nxf3 46 Rxh3 Nxg5

    and we are down a pawn - this isn't working out - can anyone see improvements for us ... and for him?
    Maybe here your interesting idea of Nxf3 is better for us:

    for instance


    36...Nf5 37 c3 Nxh4 38 Rxe7 Kg8 39 Re8+ Kg7 40 Re4 Nf3 41 Ne6+ fxe6 42 Rxa4 Nxg5
    and we have two pawns for quality... our situation is comfortable!

    EDIT: not two, one.
    after 43. Rxa7+

    and then I am not sure it is so comfortable 🙂 though it looks playable.

    Invalid FEN inserted - 8/R7/4pkp1/6np/8/2P5/PK6


    So after Nf5, we will come to situations like this one,

    or (better I think) this one:





    a draw by repetition: Re7 Kg8 Re8+ Kh7 etc.

    This one would be the most likely I would say.
    but still, 36. ... Rc4 can be considered.
  15. Subscriberptobler
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    04 Jul '09 10:351 edit
    Wait a minute ...Kh7 instead of ...Kg7 !!!

    and then we can try out the idea
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