Here is my annotated RHP game in Grob.
Dragon_fire - Korch
1.g4?!
I would not call this move decisive mistake, but its definetly at least dubious - it weakens kingside too much. If black knows how to play, then its white who will have to fight for equality.
1...e5
In my opinion this is the best response for black (instead of 1...d5 which seems to be more popular) for some reasons:
1) It does not create targets for white (after 1...d5 white will attack this pawn with Bg2 , c4 and possibly Qb3)
2) It makes possible counter attack in kingside which in my opinion is the best plan for black against 1.g4
2.c4?!
I really dislike this move for white - if they have weaken their kingside then they must develop their pieces to be able defend their weaknesses.
Much better is 2.Bg2, but anyway 2....h5 gives for black better play. for example against 3.d4 (hoping after 3....dxe4 4.g5 to get some compensation for their pawn) I would recommend 3...hxg4! 4.dxe5 Nc6 with better position for black.
2...h5 3.gxh5 Rxh5
3...Nf6 was not bad too, but black will have to take this pawn anyway, and with rook (Because knight on h5 is not so useful as rook). this game shows that such active rook can be useful even in such early stage of the game.
4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bg2 Bc5
Plan, about which I have written in comments for black first move - black pieces are aiming for whites kingside which is weakened.
6.e3
Covering f2 from black bishop and giving e2 for white knight - also making impossible 6...Ng4
6...d6
This position I would rate as better for black - due to such strategic factors as open h-file for black and weak h pawn for white. Engines usually underrate importance of such fineses - Rybka rates this position as about equal (about -0,20).
7.d4
According to Rybka this move is slightly better than others, but I`m not sure about it. 7.Nge2 and 7.Nf3 was possible, but I like 7.Ne4!? Nbd7 8.b4! (getting space in queenside) Bb6 (not 8...Bxb4?? - 9.Nxf6+ Nxf6 [otherwise white queen will take black rook] 10.Qa4+ +-) 9.Ng3 which seems playable for white. Other interesting line is 7.a3 Rg5!? 8.Bf3 Nc6 9.h4 (9.Nge2 Bh3!) Rg6 10.h5 Rh6 with better position for black.
7...Bb6
7...exd4 is playable but i disliked position after 8.exd4 Bb6 9.Nd5. In this position white could play 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Qxd8+Kxd8 10.Nge2 Nc6 and this endgame is much better for black, because white cant exploit black uncastled king, but their weaknesses are becoming more important in middle game without queens. 8.Ne4 is worth of consideration, but anyway - after 8...Rh6 black is better. But these moves was not so bad as move in game.
8.Bf3? Rh4!
Making rook active with pressure on d4 (in some lines moving pawn to e4 is good too). So white have nothing better then move into endgame in worst redaction, than it was possible in 8th move.
9.dxe5 dxe5 10.Qxd8 Kxd8 11.e4
Covering pawn on c4 and getting more space for black squared bishop, but making white bishop more passive.
11...Be6 12.Bg5 Rh8 13.Rd1+ Nbd7
At first sight white seems to have better - they have activated some of their pieces finally and black king is in center, but........black is still better because of these factors:
1)White cant exploit position of black king;
2)Whites knight on g1 is still useless and bishop on f3 is rather passive, while black bishops and knights are well placed;
3)Black still have opened h-file and better pawn structure;
But As I understood my opponent ( and not only he) rated whites position as better. So he dont feel any danger.
14.Nd5 Ba5+
Black does not want to exchange their strong bishop.
15.Kf1
If 15.b4? then 15...Bxd5 winning pawn.
After 15.Bd2 black could play 15...Bxd2+ with Rh4 and in strategic point of view this endgame is winning for black.
15...Ke8 16.b3
White will have to do this move anyway - after c6 they will have to think how to protect pawn on c4.
16…c6
Forcing exchanges
17.Bxf6?
White needed to keep their black squared bishop and exchange it only for black bishop. After 17.Nxf6+ gxf6 18.Be3 f5 19.Ne2 fxe4 20.Bxe4 f5 white have unpleasant but still defendable position.
17….Nxf6 18.Nxf6+
After 18.Ne3 Rh4! 19.Ng2 Rh6 20.Ne3 Ke7 21.Ne2 Rh8 black have decisive initiative. For example 22.Ng3 g6 (not letting knights on f5) 23.Kg1 (23.Kg2 Bh3+ 24.Kg1 Bb4 is not better) Bb4 with Bc5 and white are helpless.
18…Nxf6
18…gxf6 19.Ne3 Nc5 20.h4 Ke7 also would give black large advantage, but 18…Nxf6 seems to be better.
19.h4
Right decision. On h5 weak h-pawn will stand better and can become dangerous if black will be too careless.
19…Ke7 20.h5 f5 21.Ne2
Rybka advices 21.h6 first, but after 21…fxe4 22.Bxe4 f5 23.Bc2 Rad8 24.Rxd8 Bxd8 white will lose h-pawn and the game. But engine did not understand it for a some time.
21….. fxe4 22.Bxe4 f5 23.Bc2
Black attack in center made white to move their bishop on other squares, where he wont be able to protect h pawn , but together with knight he will make pressure on f5.
23…Rh6
Black plays very safe. Now white pawn on h6 is blocked. I think Nimzovitsch would like this move.
24.Ng3 Kf6 25.f3
Don’t letting black pawn on e4, but weakening knights position on g3. but what else white could do?
25…Rg8 26.Rg1 Bb6?!
From this moment black started to play quickly and careless, thinking that they can win whatever they want.
Playing 26...Bc7! black could win. For example 27.Rd2 (with idea of Rg2) e4 28.Rdg2 Rxg3 29.Rxg3 Bxg3 30.Rxg3 exf3 and this endgame with extra pawn black should win. But anyway - after text move black still have winning position.
27.Rg2 Bc5
Don’t letting white rook to d6
28.Ke2 Rh7?!
Why not 28…e4 with idea Ke5? White could have 2 main choices but in both of them black could got winning position:
1) 29.Rh1 Ke5 30.Rhh2 Bf7 (with threat of tasking on h5) 31.fxe4 f4! 32.Ng1 Rxg2+ 33.Rxg2 Bxh5+
2) 29.Rf1 Ke5 30.f4+ Kf6 31.Bxe4 Rxg3 32.Rxg3 fxe4
The text move had idea of doubling rooks on g-file but…..
29.Rh1!
…and 29….Rhg7 would lost after 30.h6!
29….Rg5
Don’t letting white knight to move.
30.a4
White have no active plan so they have nothing better than standing where they are and making harmless moves, awaiting what black will do. But black, having problems of finding winning plan, doing the same too.
30…Kf7
The best plan for black was Bf8-h6, doubling rooks on g7- g8 and after then moving with bishop on f4 which forced exchanges of both rooks and knight, after which black would take pawn on h5 with winning endgame. In next moves both sides are doing nothing awaiting for other to start some activity.
31.Rhh2 a5 32.Kf1 Bb4 33.Bd3 Rh8 34.Bb1 Bf8
Black have found first part from the right plan. But second part of their plan – doubling rooks on d-file wasn’t the best
35.Bd3 Bh6 36.Bb1 Rd8 37.Bc2 Kf6 38.Ke1 Rg7 39.Kf1 Rdg7
Good trap, but bad plan in case if white would simply play 40.Ke1 on which black during the game have planned 40…Rd4? (trying to make something like zugzwang for white) on which white had 41.Ne2! and on 41…Rd2 42.Rg6+ Ke7 43.Rxh6! (I underrated this simple move thinking that white should play 43.Bxf5? Bxf5 44.Rxh6 Rb2 with serious problems for white) Rxc2 44.Rg2 with counter play for white. Instead of this bad plan black could choose winning plan which I mentioned – doubling rooks on g7-g8 and putting bishop on f4 forcing exchanges.
40.Ne4+?
Getting caught in trap.
40…fxe4 41.Rg6+ Kf7 42.Rxh6
In this position white probably did expect 42….exf3 and after 43.Rh7+ Kg8 44.Rxd7 Rxd7 45.h6! white have good drawing possibilities. But….
42….Bf5!
Catching white rook. Without seeing this move, black would not do their 39th move.
43.fxe4 Kg7 44.Rxc6 Bh3+
Last finesse. Black don’t giving second passed pawn for white. Now black is winning 45.Rxh3 bxc6 46.Rg3+?
Bad move connected with plan va banque, which only makes faster final. Better was 46.Rh2 but after 46… Rd2 47.Re2 Kh6! 48.Ke1 Rxe2 49.Kxe2 Kxh6 black should win anyway.
46….Kh6 47.Rg6+? Kxh5 48.Rxb6 Rd2
And that is the end……
49.Rc5 Rxc2 50.Rxe5+ Kg4 51.Rd5 Rxd5 52.exd5 Kf5 53.Ke1 Ke5 White resigned
17 does seem like a weak move for white, he's obviously trying to double pawns but he doesnt seem to realize that its easily traded off, and that is his good bishop.
I thought your 8th move rh4 was kind of strange as you ended up losing a tempo after it got attacked by DFs bishop, but it did force e4 which put yet another white pawn on the same color as whites, white squared bishop. DFs minor pieces were pretty useless at the end of the game, he has the bad bishop and his king knight are also useless as it completly lacks anything resembling an outpost I thought 30. a4 was kind of a strange move as it gives white a backward pawn and a hole on b4, DF looked like he was just waiting to be executed at the end with all those bishop moves.
Very well played Korch I like your use of minor pieces, both your bishops were active, and you just made DF look silly
Originally posted by HomerJSimpsonMy play was far from perfect, because I` could realise my advantage much easier than it was in this game.
17 does seem like a weak move for white, he's obviously trying to double pawns but he doesnt seem to realize that its easily traded off, and that is his good bishop.
I thought your 8th move rh4 was kind of strange as you ended up losing a tempo after it got attacked by DFs bishop, but it did force e4 which put yet another white pawn on the same colo ...[text shortened]... I like your use of minor pieces, both your bishops were active, and you just made DF look silly
Originally posted by HomerJSimpsonMaybe it was better, but anyway black would have better position.
You think it would have been better if white played 11. b3, e4 seems to make that bishop useless
after..
11. b3 e4
12. bg2
white has kept the activity of his bishop better than it was the other way imo
Originally posted by KorchDo you think that you would have done as well if you came across Dragon Fire and the Grob over the board in a tournament (assuming that you did not know that he would play it)?
Maybe it was better, but anyway black would have better position.
Originally posted by zambonyIts possible, because I have studied Grob few years ago and I` know it good enough for knowing which lines are most unlikely for black.
Do you think that you would have done as well if you came across Dragon Fire and the Grob over the board in a tournament (assuming that you did not know that he would play it)?
the Grob is the most over-studied opening in the game...
1. ... d5 followed by 2. ... c6 makes things less complicated for black, so he can focus more on exploiting White's weak kingside...
c6 also gives black a great stake in the center (i'm a caro-kann fan, haven't you noticed?)
g4 is still just hanging, and can only be defended by f3, h3, g5, e3, or e4
all of which are weak here...
Grob is pathetic... quit studying it so much and spend more time trying to figure out the Poisoned Pawn Najdorf so you can write a book on it and enlighten the rest of us...
Originally posted by rubberjaw30Its your opinion. In my opinion 1...e5 with following 2...h5 is making more trouble for black. Your attitude against Grob is too arrogant. If you think that Grob is so bad, then, you can try to beat Dragon_fire on this opening.
the Grob is the most over-studied opening in the game...
1. ... d5 followed by 2. ... c6 makes things less complicated for black, so he can focus more on exploiting White's weak kingside...
c6 also gives black a great stake in the center (i'm a caro-kann fan, haven't you noticed?)
g4 is still just hanging, and can only be defended by f3, h3, g5, e3, o ...[text shortened]... e out the Poisoned Pawn Najdorf so you can write a book on it and enlighten the rest of us...
Btw. I have studied it for playing with white, but concluded that (at least for me) its useful for blitz and nothing more.
Originally posted by HomerJSimpsonI have not yet read Korchs comments as I will write up this game myself from whites perspective and do not want my thougts tainted.
Would you say that DF is great at tactics, and not as good at stategy? Would that be a fair assessment?
But Homer I am not great at tactics. I wish I was but look at my games and you will see loads of tactical blunders, some very basic but I do tend to go for very tactical types of games, hence Kings Gambit, Morra Gambit and indeed the Grob. In more closed strategic type games, like the French, I can tend to get frustrated and sacrifice unsoundly.
I am playing in Portsmouth Congress this weekend so will analyse the game next week, but in the congress the Grob got me an OTB win against a 2000+ player in round 2. He was totally surprised by it and had never faced it before. He did play 1. .. e5 and followed it up with d5 and c6 so got the structure right. I will post that game on www.farehamchess.org.uk in due course.
... and here are my comments on the Game 3119448
Dragon Fire - Korch [Grob]
1. g4!!
Why play the Grob? Partly because it is a little known weapon that can ambush the unwary player. OTB many have never played it and are quickly "out of book". Even using books and computer databases established theory can be left behind after 5 or 6 moves, so it becomes a battle of wits between two people and is not decided by who has the better database. In addition its exciting, dynamic open lines can provide much tactical excitement. With his first move black is threatening a K-side assult and lays claim to the a8-h1 diagonal. Black (for the time being) has the centre. In most lines of the Grob white must take care to watch his black squares.
1. ... e5!
1... d5?! threatening the g4 pawn is in my opinion inferior and does not cause as many problems for white as the text.
2. c4
2. Bg2 is usually played here but white intends playing that anyway and this move immediately lays claim to d5.
2... h5 3. gxh5 Rxh5 4.Nc3 Nf6
Korch deviates. Perhaps he knew the fate of GM Keith Arkell who played 4...Nc6 5. d3 d6 6. Bg2 Nf6 7. h4 Ng4 8. Nf3 Nd4 9. Bg5 Be7 10. Bxe7 Qxe7 11. Nxd4 exd4 12. Nd5 (1-0 IM Basman vs (now)GM Arkell, Southampton 1986)
5. Bg2
claiming the diagonal
5. .. Bc5 6. e3
Without due care f2 will be a weakness so it must be protected. At the same time d4 is threatened
6. .. d6 7. d4 Bb6
7... exd4 8. exd4 Bb6 9. Qe2+ Kf8 (is hardly great for black)
8. Bf3
as in the game Basman vs (now) GM John Nunn in Oxford, 1978 (1-0) I intended harassing the black rook (hopefully into oblivion)
8. .. Rh4
This move surprised me as I had expected a retreat to h6, h7 or h8 but Fritz has it as the best move for black
9. dxe5
9. Be2 (should be considered - see notes after move 10)
9... dxe5 10. Qxd8+ Kxd8
These exchanges seemed logical. Development is about equal and black cannot now castle but strategically my isolated RP and 3 pawn islands is probably weak and 9. dXe5 was probably wrong
Position after blacks 10th move. 11. Bd2!! and white has some winning chances
11. e4
I agonised a lot over this move. I wanted to cut the black rook off from the Q-side but I opened up f6 and blocked control of the a8-h1 diagonal. (11. Bd2 is better Rxc4 12.Be2 Rb4 13. O-O-O Ne4 14. Be1+ Ke8 15. Nd5 Ra4 16. Bb5+ Bd7 17. Bxa4 and white is probably winning). Of course black does not have to play RXc4??
11... Be6 12. Bg5
continuing the plan from move 8 to harrass the rook
12. .. Rh8 13. Rd1+ Nbd7 14. Nd5
14. Bxf6+ gxf6 15. Nd5 (is a better option)
14... Ba5+ 15. Kf1 Ke8 16. b3 c6 17. Bxf6
17. Nxf6+ Nxf6 18. h4 (keeping the bishop pair is vastly better)
17... Nxf6 18. Nxf6+ gxf6 19. h4
Passed pawns should be pushed.
19. .. f5 20. h5 fxe4 21. Bxe4 f5 22. Bc2 Rh6 23. Ne2
The idea was Ng3 then Ne4 (if f4) or h6 (if Rf6) but it doesn't work so this was probably the decisive mistake. Fritz rates this move .50 of a pawn worse than the best alternative (23. Nf3 Bc7 24. Re1 e4 25. Nd4 Bd7 26. f3 (with equality)
23... Ke7 24. Ng3 Kf6
Spoiling my plan.
25. f3
I now realised any chance of a win had gone so the idea was to blockade and prevent penetration by the K & Rs.
25. .. Rg8 26. Rg1 Bb6 27. Rg2 Bc5 28. Ke2 Rh7
I had not thought 28... e4 was playable but after 29. Rf1 (29. fxe4 f4) 29... Ke5 30. f4+ Kf6 black has obtained a decisive passed pawn
29. Rh1 Rg5 30. a4
Fritz likes 30. Rh4 but I could not see any follow up and preferred to double the Rooks on my 2nd rank in the hope of preventing blacks penetration
30... Kf7 31.Rhh2 a5 32. Kf1 Bb4 33. Bd3
I cannot improve my position. Black must prove the win whilst I shuffle my B between b1 - c2 and d3 and my King between f1 - f2 and e2
33. .. Rh8 34. Bb1 Bf8 35. Bd3 Bh6 36. Bb1 Rd8 37. Bc2 Kf6 38. Ke1 Rg7 39. Kf1 Rgd7
My plan seems to be working when I suddenly notice what I think is an opportunity
40. Ne4+ fxe4 41. Rg6+ Kf7 42. Rxh6 Bf5
I had totally missed this move (42... exf3 had been expected when 43.Rh7+ Kg8 44. Rxd7 Rxd7 45. h6 Rd4 46. Kf2 Rd2+ 47. Kg3 Rxh2 48. Kxh2 b5 49. Kg3 is probably drawn
43. fxe4 Kg7 44. Rxc6
trying for a cheapo. If 44... bxc6 45. exf5 and white retains some drawing chances
44. .. Bh3+ 45. Rxh3 bxc6 46.Rg3+ (What else?) Kh6 47. Rg6+ Kxh5 48. Rxc6
Instantly fatal but I was feeling despondant now realising that I was about to lose my first Grob
48. .. Rd2 49. Rc5 Rxc2 50. Rxe5+ Kg4 51. Rd5
Anything else and white is mated in short order
Rxd5 52. exd5 Kf4 53. Ke1 Ke4
and white resigned. The white king and rook simply eats the pawns and then queen the a pawn. White can do nothing.
e.g. 54. Kd1 Kd3 55. d6 Rh2 56. Ke1 Kc3 57.Kf1 Kxb3 58. c5 Rd2 59. Ke1 Rd4 60. Ke2 Kb4 61. c6 Rxd6 62. c7 Rc6 63. Kd3 Kxa4 64. Kd4 Kb3 65. Kd5 Rxc7 66. Ke6 a4 67. Kd6 Rc1 68. Ke6 a3 69. Kf6 a2 70. Kf5 a1=Q 71. Ke6 Rc6+ 72. Kf5 Qd4 73. Kg5 Rc5+ 74. Kg6 Qf4 75. Kh7 Qf7+ 76. Kh6 Rh5 mate
So my first loss with the Grob but in my defense I would expect to lose to Korch even if I had played e4 and it is only moves 11 and 40 that lost the game so, in my opinion, this does not prove the Grob is unplayable
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